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Moczo

Character Study: Ilyasviel von Einzbern

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Oh boy.


This is going to be a rough one for me. I struggle to maintain neutrality on these character studies and analyze the characters involved less around how I personally feel about them, and more on how I feel they were used in canon and how I prefer to use them in my own stories. This is gonna be rough with the Lady Einzbern, since of the FSN cast, she is my favorite by a decent margin. I loves me some Ilya. Maintaining objectivity in the face of that is gonna be a bitch, because I have to analyze her rationally and think of the flaws in her character, in addition to just pointing out what I love.


Secondly, any analysis of Ilya is, by necessity, going to delve deeply into Heaven's Feel, since that's the route where she got the most development by a landslide (more, ironically, than the actual heroine of it in some ways). And I... don't care for HF. I know that's odd, considering Chaos Theory draws so heavily from it, but it's true. I don't wanna analyze HF again. It depresses me.


But I promised. And a Moczo always keeps his word, unless lying is more fun. ONWARD!


Ilya in Canon:


Ilya in canon is my favorite character for a number of reasons, but not the best-utilized one. These seem mutally exclusive, but they really aren't; Nasu just had issues with putting his characters to good use. Check my Sakura analysis for what I think on that; he is great at making these deep, complex, interesting characters, and then when it comes time to use them in a well-rounded story, he flops like a sea bass.


Ilyasviel is among the most complex and most difficult to write characters in the FSN continuum, in part because she is also the most malleable. Every character that is decently written should be dynamic. Able to learn, change, grow, and become someone different at the end of the story than they were at the start. And Ilyasviel is, bar none, the most dynamic character in the story. In both Fate and HF, (UBW does not count, since she gets no screentime to change in) she is a completely different person at the end compared to the beginning, despite having relatively few stimuli to create this change. Things that would not deeply alter most other characters can cause Ilya to instantaneously reevaluate her entire worldview. Why is that?


Because she, more than nearly any other character in the series, is innocent.


And note that I say she is 'innocent', not 'good'. They are not the same thing, and indeed she is capable of some of the most shockingly horrible cruelty imaginable, but it all stems from her core of absolute, complete innocence. When first introduced, she is basically a blank slate with no social experience to speak of. She has no moral compass, does not comprehend the difference between right and wrong, and is almost incapable of considering the feelings of others. She is out to do only what she feels like doing without considering anyone or anything else, because with no concept of what constitutes good or evil, she has no conscience. She is, for all intents and purposes, a sociopath, but this stems not from an actual lack of personal morals or empathy, but from the fact she's never had any interactions with people to develop those things. She was pushed into the role of sociopath, it isn't her natural state of being.


Is Ilya evil, at the start of the story? By most standards, yes. She's a heartless little monster. But she never had the chance to be anything else, and interacting with other characters almost immediately begins to change that. In both of the routes where she got any development at all, this development happens at lightning speed. Getting to know Shirou even a tiny bit is enough to cause her feelings for him to do a complete 180 from 'unreasonable loathing' to 'I really like this guy!'. And it's the same with, basically, everyone. With both Saber and Rin, relatively short periods of association are enough for her to develop from utter disdain to treating them almost like sisters. And it isn't like she suddenly becomes some paragon of love and justice; she's still selfish, catty, and impatient. But she's so unused to social situations, such a blank slate, that any friendly contact with a person at all is enough to shift her opinions on them rapidly.


And God did Nasu drop the ball by not giving her her own route.

Of every girl in the game, Ilya is the one with the deepest connection to Shirou. She has the most elaborate backstory with him, is the quickest to bond with him once their differences are settled, and the one who offers him the most unquestioning support. Once she begins to trust him, she does so implicitly and to a degree that is almost frightening; once they have bonded in HF, Shirou is quite clearly the center of her world. It is a deep, intense bond.


And it never gets the exploration it deserves. Instead, it is relegated to a background relationship in another girl's route, which I feel harms the storytelling of Heaven's Feel as a whole, because Shirou honestly seems to like Ilya more than the girl he claims to be in love with. She is the one who supports him when his will is failing, the bright spot in the endless tragedy that characterizes the story of HF. I have heard Heaven's Feel described as the route where 'Shirou romances Ilya and has sex with Sakura', and it's painfully accurate.


This is a disservice to Ilya, as it hamstrings the development of her connection to the one character in the game she has the deepest connection to, restricting it to grow only so far and no further. And it's a disservice to Sakura, because comparing her romance to the brother/sister relationship Shirou develops with Ilya, there is no comparison. The latter gets infinitely more on-screen development as Shirou comes to rely on her more and more, and Sakura's deteriorating health keeps her off-screen more and more often. Shirou's bond with Ilya grows continuously deeper, while his relationship with Sakura is largely static and based on development that happened before the story even started and which we never get to see for ourselves. The end result makes both girls feel like they only got half the story they deserved, and is a big part of the reason I feel HF was sub-par. It wasn't the Sakura Route, it tried to be the Sakura Route and the Ilya Route, and as a result it didn't fully succeed at either.


Bluntly? Ilya shouldn't have been a loli. It was a bad decision with little impact on her character anyway. It was clearly made to play to the fetishes, and as one of the major factors that prevented her from being a full love interest, it was just plain a stupid choice. Had she just looked teenage, without changing anything else about her, she could have gotten the route she needed, and the huge amount of screentime she got in HF could have been given back to the actual love interest of the route. A fairly simple change, but it would have made a world of difference.


But what if she is the love interest? To the fanfics.


Ilya in Chaos Theory:


God she's hard to write, both in her relationship with Shirou, and in her own development as an individual.


First, the Shirou thing. For starters, no, I did not take the easy way out by simply giving her a new body. That means I have to take my time and be fucking careful when writing the romance between her and Shirou, because otherwise I make him look like a perv. Lolicon is a real fetish, yes, but it's not a good one to hand a sympathetic character. To me, the successful Ilya/Shirou romance is not one wherein he pervs out and falls for her 'cute little girl charms,' such as they are. It's one where he falls for her despite her appearance. Her devotion to and adoration for Shirou are obvious and real. It just needs to be made clear that these, and nothing else, are the defining factor that draws him to her. The primary relationship must be emotional, not physical. He can be attracted to her physically, yes, but it must be made bluntly clear that the physical interest is developed after an intense and genuine emotional bond is already in place.


And for fuck's sake, after he finds out she's a teenager.


Second, her own personality. This is hard too, for a different reason. I mentioned earlier that a good character should be dynamic, and this is true, but general characters require some major outside force to change. It's normal for the majority of characters to end a story as largely the same person they were when they started, just grown somewhat for their efforts. But as I mentioned earlier, Ilya is not like that at all. She is dynamic to the point of making most other characters seem to be developing in slow motion. Relatively small things can produce enormous changes in her. This is hard to portray convincingly without making her seem like a lunatic (and yes, in some ways, she is kinda insane, but not that much). Tiny things; a smile, a friendly gesture, an expression of generosity that she sees no point behind. Anything can be a trigger for a minor existential crisis in the poor dear. Just treating her like a human instead of a weapon rapidly shifts her morality and viewpoint on the world.


Writing a serious Ilya story means recognizing this, spotting the things that could change her, and trying to work out in your head what that change would be. It's a very much trial and error process, and I don't claim to have gotten everything right. So far, I'm very happy with how she's grown; in a fairly short time, she's gone from her usual sociopathic starting point to valuing Shirou's happiness more than her own convenience. Is she in love? No. She's in a combination of admiration, lust, and a tiny bit of over-possessive obsession. But she's growing into someone who can be in love, and someone Shirou would want to love back. She grew from seeing Shirou as 'someone to kill' into 'someone to have', then 'someone to take care of'. 'The one I really love' is on this road, she just has a long way to go and a good deal of selfishness to shed in order to get there.




Ilya in Comedy works:


In sharp contrast to Chaos Theory, Einzbern Comedy is both easy and fun. It is also very, very simple:


Take that sociopathy I mentioned above. Add in a dose of 'Shirou is my toy!' attitude. Shake well and sprinkle liberally with the willingness to sic Berserker on people who annoy her. It really is this simple. She works astonishingly well with Comedic Sociopathy works because... well, she really is kind of a Comedic Sociopath played for non-comedy at some points in canon. 'The crazy girl with the pet giant' is comedy gold. And her enormous wealth and tendency to consider logic a vague whim mean she can make a lot of plots go very, very off the rails.


Beauregard optional, but encouraged.


Phew! That was... a lot of talking. But hopefully it all makes sense.


Now. If you'll excuse me, God, I'm tired.

Comments

  1. Aiden's Avatar
    Pretty much spot on as far as I can tell. Mind you, I found Bad End 1 morbidly adorable in this utterly creepy way, so I might not be the best judge of character here, and the Bad End where she turns him into a doll after tying him to a chair had me going 'YAY', but...
  2. Laith's Avatar
    I agree on everything but this

    Bluntly? Ilya shouldn't have been a loli.
    is where I want to say I agree the most.
  3. gothic_dolly's Avatar
    Excellent~ I agree with you totally [except maybe the loli part, though I think it was mostly a fetishy decision on Nasu's part, it's part of her character that initially attracted me to her in the first place. In a game with quite a few girls on the sexy/refined/tsundere axis she was more cute, which was a welcome change. Though I imagine if she was a bit taller most people's problems with her would disappear.]
  4. Seika's Avatar
    The blow-up this would have caused if certain people were still around ...

    Anyway, the loli thing isn't something I'm so adamant about as you (though I think it's a problem as F/SN stands). I see it as part of the same 'twixt and 'tween problem caused by the original route existing and then getting cut which you observe affects HF. If Ilya was designed from the start as an antagonist, if Nasu hadn't made her the sort who could change and come to actually love Shirō, I think the loliness could have worked. Playing off that fetish and using/showing/underlining its creepiness is a perfectly valid way to go: setting up certain expectations from Ilya doing the whole "Oniiii-chan!" thing, and then having her be a murderous sociopath who comes close to raping Shirō would be interesting - a neat villain design. That scene in the Einzbern Castle is still pretty freaky on that very level, because it is a little kid forcing sexual advances on the main character.

    As it stands, we have a more complex character, who would be better served by not looking so young. But I think that it does still work for those moments of the story when she seems flatter, before we see her other sides and her character develop. I wish that the expectation of 'Oh, a loli love interest!' weren't so easy to find (and therefore so worthy of twisting back on itself, and undermining), but that's what so much of Japan's geek media does.
  5. Break's Avatar
    i do not think Illya's loliness is that much of a problem; after all, it is pretty important to her character, ro rather, to the way the other characters see her. she deliberately uses the expectations that Shirou automatically builds up based on her outside appearance, which is in large part the reason why he opens up to her this fast and easy during the das where they meet. as such, much of Illya's development wouldve hardly been possible if she actually looked her age. i know im biased because i am a lolicon myself, but i would still liek you to seriosuly consider this; without some pretty heavy rewriting of her whole interactions with Shirou, heaving a grown-up Illya wouldve been quite hard. she also wouldnt have hit some of the "buttons" at the audience that form her picture in our eyes; many of her character traits wouldve seemed simply weird if it wasnt for her loliness, both in the stuff she naturally does and the stuff she deliberately does to cater to those expectations because she's aware of it herself.
  6. Altima of the Gates's Avatar
    I will stay away from arguing about HF, since what I had said before in your last character analysis sums up my feelings there.

    But yes Ilya. The loli aspect of her character would not have gotten Shirou to let down his guard as much. Look at the difference between how he treats Rider, and how he treats Ilya. Both are female, both have tried to kill him horribly, and he acknowledges both are dangerous, but, and this is a valid stratagem to use against a person, Shirou always maintains a more paternal air of protectiveness to Ilya no matter what she does to him. Whereas Rider is always that 'woman who smells like blood'. His interactions with Ilya can be seen from a fetishy standpoint, but it's a valid way to get under the reader's skin in the same way, given she had a wealth of information to give the heroes on HF and didn't, but people are more likely to hoist blame on a certain other character despite the aforementioned being one of the more senior magi in the group and in full account of their mental faculties. They note her sacrifice, but it comes well after everything has already hit the fan, and could have summarily been avoided, so...
    So essentially, like Shirou, the audience seems like they have been enraptured and gain a protectorate standpoint without even realizing it themselves, making it a good move for Nasu to make having her look as she did. Psychological terrorism by the author at its finest.

    But don't take this as me knocking her, since this was just an explanation about why exactly it was really brilliant to make her look as she did. Try as people might, a good portion will always accept more from what seems to be a child than anyone looking older, and making her hold such wealth of knowledge in tandem with her innocence in some respects make her very interesting. So she really does seem like someone who was just brought up in a rather twisted way.
  7. Moczo's Avatar
    Oh, don't get me wrong: I do actually agree with the fact that her loliness served a point in her character. The contrast between her appearance and her behavior (particularly early on when she was ripping people's heads off) did provide an impact.

    It's just that in my opinion, the tradeoff was in no way worth it. It's pretty much accepted that when a route needed to be cut, she got the axe in large part because of the lolitude. I accept that it wasn't only playing to the fetishes, but it did end up hurting the game a lot more than it helped. Making her a foot taller may have made Shirou slower to take her under his wing, but it could have also opened the door to a lot more focus on her character, and that's a good trade. Most of her personality could have been salvaged without changing a thing (as it was never really about her age, it was about the fact she's essentially been locked in her room for the last decade). The majority of Shirou's attitude can be maintained by virtue of the fact that being lightly built and behaving in a childlike way will still bring up the thoughts of frailty and innocent youth (only 'the majority', because it will have to change somewhat, I admit; a kid can get away with things an older person can't, and personality only goes so far in that respect). She's still the adorable, ephemeral fairy-girl who alternates between cheerful innocent and cold-blooded monster. She's just... slightly larger now.

    ... and let's face it, while the loli thing wasn't only playing to the fetishes, that was at least part of it. Nasu is capable of being quite subtle in many ways, but when it comes to sexuality he is the equivalent of a sledgehammer. I don't automatically disapprove of making a character play to a fetish (Rin is so perfectly designed to appeal to tsundere fans...), but I do disapprove when that design choice limits the character as much as this one did to Ilya.
    Updated January 20th, 2013 at 12:49 PM by Moczo
  8. RadiantBeam's Avatar
    I spent pretty much my whole time reading this nodding and complete and utter agreement with everything you were saying. Especially since a lot of what you mentioned was stuff we've already discussed before, often at length.

    As for Ilya as a loli.... hm. I'm going to be the odd one and say it sort of has both an upside and a downside. Obviously, as you pointed out in your own analysis, the biggest downside is that by making Ilya a loli (especially before you find out she's actually older than Shirou) she actually got pretty downgraded as a character--almost immediately from 'potential love interest with childish sociopathic qualities' to 'little sister with childish sociopathic qualities'. I actually think this is why, well, Iri looks so much older in comparison: to draw on that sort of childish innocence in an adult body. Sure, Iri takes it in another direction in comparison to Ilya, but the similarities are there.

    But on the upside, I think downplaying her physically does a huge justice in how her emotional bond plays out with Shirou, because he isn't looking at her like he looks at Saber and Rin and Sakura. It's actually a lot of development not only for the relationship, but for Shirou as well; because she doesn't look physically like something he'd be attracted to or interested in as a general principle, he has to truly come to love her and see her for what she is, small body and all. Not that I'm saying he didn't love the other three girls, but... well, I think you get what I mean.

    So I think the loli aspect of her character is both good and bad. It sort of downplays her role in the story as a whole, especially with her cut route, but at the same time it somewhat justifies the extra care and development her relationship with Shirou gets in HF.

    At least that's what I think.
  9. Altima of the Gates's Avatar
    Nasu was for the most part fibbing really on the loli aspect being what deterred him from a solid route, given young looking characters having ero scenes has been pretty much excepted from early on. There might have been some fear of societal backlash, but not the end all be all factor.

    Fate was their first commercial product, and of course iirc, they all had regular jobs on top of working on it. That, and in the many interviews since, it more seems to be Nasu's obsessive compulsive tendencies that got in the way on the deadline while he was writing HF, so he opted to cut the middle man and merge Sakura and Ilya's routes rather than delay it even longer.

    And I again disagree, making her taller would not really gain any dynamics to her character. She is a person who has had her body toyed with, so essentially, this is the repercussions of it. So I really don't see exactly how making her seem older would change anything for the better, given that *anything* can really be equated to fetishism. Her albino look, the frailty of her condition, her red eyes, her white hair on a small body, any of these factors. Now I can see why you would say being a loli is pandering, but it is effective pandering given that it perfectly embodies her role as a disposable tool for the Einzberns as the Holy Grail, and how it affected her life and will do so in the future. So, as I see the eternal loli done so often in media, that doesn't seem to be a factor that holds her character back in any way. Its an effective cliche much like you just mentioned with Rin, who is the school idol/genius/zettai ryouiki mini skirted tsundere , sometimes a mess of cliches just works and isn't an insult to the character or their development. With Ilya, I feel it is one of those times.
  10. Break's Avatar
    i agree 100% with Altima; after all, loli-characters in eroge wasnt anythign uncommon back then either; blaming the cut of her route on it seems rather like an excuse. you migth remember that they originally planned to release it in two parts, Fate 1 wouldve been Fate and UBW, and Fate 2 wouldve been HF- it seems likely that if they wouldve decided for the two parts á 2 routes system they were originally planning, there wouldve been enough time between the two to have the Illya and Sakura routes in part 2. also makes sense since both are holy grails and likely wouldve revealed the whole "heavens feel" background that was omitted in fate and ubw; similar to near moon and far moon side. not to mention Nasu includes rape of actual underage girls in both fate and tsukihime, though its jsut told in dialogue.
  11. Moczo's Avatar
    I do think they ran out of time, but something needed to be the last straw for why Ilya was cut instead of anyone else, despite having a bigger part in the backstory of the War than arguably any other character. FSN was, as you said, their first commercial product, and when they needed to cut something, they cut the route that was more a risk to the product being regulated, that's all.
  12. Seika's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates
    Nasu was for the most part fibbing really on the loli aspect being what deterred him from a solid route, given young looking characters having ero scenes has been pretty much excepted from early on.
    Oh? That's some solid proof for your insight into his mind you have there.

    And I again disagree, making her taller would not really gain any dynamics to her character. She is a person who has had her body toyed with, so essentially, this is the repercussions of it. So I really don't see exactly how making her seem older would change anything for the better, given that *anything* can really be equated to fetishism. Her albino look, the frailty of her condition, her red eyes, her white hair on a small body, any of these factors.
    Are you really missing or ignoring the dividing factor between fetishism of a child's body and fetishism of albinism? They are not the same.
  13. Break's Avatar
    Seika: i think Altima was just pointing out that Illya has many fetish points vcombined, and that both her small build and her albinism are also points that emphathize her frail body and that her body has been tampered with on a fundamental scale.
  14. Lycodrake's Avatar
    The text-wall responses are daunting, but I'd like to applaud this commentary.
    I honestly don't believe I could pinpoint which paragraph specifically I...agree with the most? I'm not sure "agree" is the right word; perhaps "gain the most insight that I agree with in retrospect"?
    Either way, nicely (or near-amazingly) thought out, Moczo.
  15. Altima of the Gates's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Break
    Seika: i think Altima was just pointing out that Illya has many fetish points vcombined, and that both her small build and her albinism are also points that emphathize her frail body and that her body has been tampered with on a fundamental scale.


    Pretty much. And on Seika's other point, Nasu always has trouble and we see frequent delays because he has other jobs, and because he is OCD when scriptwriting, that was where I made my assertion, and it fits to the logic they used jokingly in the Tiger Dojo a out all these materials they had that were never used. If we saw a postmortem from the staff on the game, I am sure it would reflect much of that.

    That and iirc one of the plans was for two games to be produced, Saber and Rin's for the first, and Sakura and Ilya for the second. On their first commercial release making it into two games would be daunting, and arguably a mistake on their part. It could have been done better, but so could many things in hindsight.
  16. I3uster's Avatar
    Bluntly? Ilya shouldn't have been a loli. It was a bad decision with little impact on her character anyway. It was clearly made to play to the fetishes, and as one of the major factors that prevented her from being a full love interest, it was just plain a stupid choice. Had she just looked teenage, without changing anything else about her, she could have gotten the route she needed, and the huge amount of screentime she got in HF could have been given back to the actual love interest of the route. A fairly simple change, but it would have made a world of difference.
    I have to disagree.

    Nasu either doesn't mind or actually likes loli, because Len. Being a loli is what would actually had allowed her to have a route, because it brings some variance in the heroines, and the Otaku crowd fucking loves their loli heroines. IIRC the reason the route was folded together with HF was because they were running out of time/budget. Suggesting that her being a loli cost her her route is just...strange.
  17. Moczo's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by I3uster
    I have to disagree.

    Nasu either doesn't mind or actually likes loli, because Len. Being a loli is what would actually had allowed her to have a route, because it brings some variance in the heroines, and the Otaku crowd fucking loves their loli heroines. IIRC the reason the route was folded together with HF was because they were running out of time/budget. Suggesting that her being a loli cost her her route is just...strange.
    Not so much. Tsukihime, and by extension Kagetsu Tohya, were basically doujin projects, written before Type-Moon was a company worth mentioning. Fate/Stay Night was their first big, commercial project, and therefore public opinion started to become a lot more important. Lolicon is a popular in some circles of the otaku community, but it's becoming less and less socially acceptable, even in Japan.

    And I never denied a factor involved was running out of time/budget. But in that case, why drop Ilya's route, rather than Sakura's or Rin's? Saber is, of course, the covergirl, but Ilya has more relevance to Shirou's past and the Grail's existence than either of the Tohsaka Gals. So why'd they both make the cut over her? Because Sakura and Rin are less likely to attract the wrath of moral watchdogs to the company's new flagship franchise. A newborn company doesn't need bad press, so when they had to cut something, the biggest risk is what got the axe. I just question the need to have that risk there in the first place when it was probably unneeded.
  18. I3uster's Avatar
    Because Sakura's was the most finished.

    If you think bringing out a loli heroine is a big deal for a VN...no. Seriously, VNs are exclusively aimed at the bottom of the social barrel. No matter how soft they are in actual content, the public opinion of these things isn't any higher than in the west, adding loli or not is just not a factor, maybe a positive one. Definitely not a negative one.

    Saying that it's becoming less socially acceptable...it actually isn't that acceptable in the first place, lol. It really is acceptable only in the circles that are already viewed as anti-social. That is the target audience for VNs.

    There was just no risk. If there was a risk it was actually cutting out the loli heroine, but they managed to sell it just fine.

    I really liked your character analysis, don't get me wrong, and I agree with most of your points. But this part just irked me, because it was based mostly on assumptions that are, as far as I know, false.