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Yet more bad moderation.

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OK, so, people are asking what happened with my ban, so I thought I'd explain it before DP can come up with a bunch of excuses.

Basically, I got banned because Elf was in a pissy with her job, DP can't communicate to save his fucking life and Altima, well, I dunno, maybe he decided he'd help me out in an argument for once, by proving me right when I said something that, at the time, was probably actually wrong. Nothing else makes sense, certainly, because there's no fucking way in hell what I said deserved a straight ban, without so much as a warning (either now or in the past).

I accept that what I said was, at the time, not really fair, at least towards DP and mods in general. He was actually debating quite reasonably, and explaining his reasoning pretty well, hence why I actually gave up the argument. Me calling DP fascist was, at the time, unwarrented, as was calling the mod team the SS.

The reasoning they gave me for the ban was a combination of the fact that I'd called them fascist before, and the fact that I continued for several posts. However, they at no point made any attempt to stop me doing this. I have had no kind of warnings, and nothing more than a friendly "please don't call me that" from DP, in a totally non-moderator way. What possible justification can they have for saying "well, we're sick of it" when they had previously done absolutely nothing about it. Further, in the thread itself, he made absolutely no effort to calm me down (his excuse for that is "well, I expected you'd just tell me to stuff it", but that doesn't excuse not trying), and indeed continued with the argument as if nothing had happened.

Additionally, not only was IRUN's post pretty much flamebait, but the subsequent actions of the mods (joking about it and messing around) indicated that they really did not care, not to mention them obviously trolling me when I was clearly in a pissed-off mood. If they don't care, then why the fuck was I banned? Of course, they're going to do precisely fuck all about this, because they're continuing along the theme of "protect our moderation team no matter what, and fuck everyone else". I get a fucking ban for getting angry, IRUN gets nothing for repeatedly goading me in the thread and for making a flamebait comment in the first damn place.

What they did was, perhaps, just about acceptable behaviour for a normal forumite, but mods are supposed to act to resolve problems, not to create them, and when an issue erupts they have to act as a mod and actually deal with it in a logical, sensible manner. If we can't add them to the ignore list (and, I do understand DP's reasoning for although, really, it only works if they make at least some effort to actually defuse arguments in threads, rather than adding more fuel to the fire...), then they should bloody well be expected to not make us want to add them. And, it's not just me, either, I've seen mods goading Lyco when he was in a bad mood before.

Further, as to the "insult" itself, fascism is a genuine political philosophy, that people do hold. OK, so it's almost certainly a hyperbola to accuse any of the mods on this forum of holding such a philosophy, but such people do exist. If they show up, what am I meant to call them? Not to mention that I'm pretty damn sure I've been called an "anarchist" by multiple people (and probably a communist, too), which is something that is generally seen as just as insulting as being called a fascist would be. I don't mind, because I don't see anarchy as a bad thing, in principle at least (I accept it probably can't work in practice), but that doesn't mean that the people calling me it feel the same way. Calling someone a "fascist" or a "tyrant" is not as simple as shouting an insult at them, it is expressing a genuine opinion, and it certainly does not deserve a straight-out ban with absolutely no warning.

And, even ignoring the fact that the actual offense was nowhere near deserving of a straight ban, given that I'd had no prior warnings in the same area, no recent warnings at all and was provoked by IRUN, the way you handled actually making the decision was utterly disgraceful.

I mean, what sort of justice system gives the "victim" the right to not only put their story across but to actually make the decision, whilst the accused doesn't even realised they're being tried until the sentence has been passed? Well, I can think of a few, but you'd probably see it as an "insult" if I mentioned them, even though I am simply stating a fact....

None of you made any effort whatsoever to talk to me about any of this, or to get my side of the story. DP, you talked about me not "respecting" the mods/admins as people, but if that had been the case, then I wouldn't have been friends with Altima or Elf. It is true that I don't respect moderators or admins as a group, but as people I treat you much like I would anyone else, aside from when you actually act as moderators/admins and start imposing your beliefs on me.

However, respect is something you earn. You don't get it by right just because you have a luminant cyan or green name, you get it because you actually deserve it. And, right now, I'm finding it hard to see why any of you admins really deserve much in the way of respect from me, although Elf and DP do at least deserve some credit for admitting that they were wrong, even if they've done precisely fuck all to rectify it.

RB, well, I don't talk to you much, so I can't really say that I respect you any more than I do some random guy I met on the street. That's not necessarily your fault, as such, but it's still the case. Further, I know that you generally do vote to ban me when the option comes up, at least in the cases where I have got banned, and I've yet to ever have any kind of attempt from you to communicate with me about it.

Elf, you do at least have an excuse for not talking to me due to your work (although, really, if you've got time to debate a ban in the admin forum, you should have time to send me a PM), but that doesn't change the fact that you voted for a ban that you admitted you shouldn't have supported, simply because your work was stressing you out. OK, you did apologise, which is at least something, but I don't exactly see you rushing to rescind the ban you admitted was unjust, or any of the other consequences of it (like the "cool-down period").

OK, I accept that you made a mistake, and you apologised for that, but I don't see you attempting to make up for it (just like you never made up for any of the previous times you screwed me over), and, further, I don't see any indication that I can trust you any more in the future.

DP, on the other hand, you have no such excuse. You made a conscious decision not to talk to me because you thought I would just shout at you, and you also refrained from trying to stop me in the thread itself for the same reason. You may well have been right in that respect, but that doesn't excuse you not at least trying to talk to me, particularly since you said that an apology would have been sufficient to avoid a ban. I had no indication there was any urgency here, and no indication that there was any serious problem at all. I (quite reasonably) assumed you were brushing it off like you always have before, since no-one said anything to me at all.

Again, I accept that you apologised and respect you for that but, then, you apologised last time too, and you still did the exact same thing this time around. So, what reason do I have for believing it'll be any different if another issue like this arises? It's a shame, because you were actually being quite reasonable in that thread, prior to my explosion. You just seem to have forgotten that one of the duties of an admin is to actually deal with issues like that as they happen, by talking to people. Handing out bans once everything is calmed down with no accountability and no discussion (with me, anyway) does not resolve anything.

Et tu Altima.

Well, what can I say here? Apart from voting for the entirely unjust ban, which I guess is just a matter of your personal philosophy and natural tendancies towards authoritarianism, you made absolutely no effort to communicate with me whatsoever, aside from talking to me during the incident, whilst I was still in a bad mood, you gave me no indication that a ban was even being discussed, you outright threatened me with a permaban if I did anything like this again (which is worse than even DP seems to want) and, then, you have the gall to claim you're actually trying to help me. If this is your idea of "help", then I'd hate to see what you think a backstab is.

I think I should recommend you to Leo for the next Diplomacy game, because your ability to backstab someone whilst still claiming to be their friend is outstanding. Hell, all of you seem pretty damn good at talking and apologising without showing any indication of actually doing anything about it.

You claim I've "not changed", but that is quite simply not true. I do explode less than I used to, and I am trying to avoid it, even if I do fail some times. The very fact that I've not had any significant trouble for several months (despite a hell of a lot of provocation and absolutely zero help from you or DP in dealing with it) proves that. Unfortunately, you apparently expect me to be perfect, and every time I make a mistake you say "well, you've not changed". Because, of course, you don't notice all the times I don't respond to provocation, or respond in a relatively reserved manner like I did to all of MoB's provocation in the banner thread. Further, your attitude towards me (and that of the mods in general) makes it a hell of a lot harder.

The problem here is that you say we need to communicate more, but who with? DP and Elf, you say you're sorry but, aside from the fact that Elf is essentially never around when I am, I don't see how I can really trust you. You apologise, but is it really sincere, or are you just saying whatever you think will calm me down and make me not hate you? For me to actually believe it, I need to see evidence, especially since this has happened before, and you made much the same statement then as you have now. And, Altima, I honestly don't think I can trust you ever again after this, not without a very big change in your attitude. You seem to genuinely think that it would be best to just get rid of me and be done with it.

I will try to communicate better, but it's a two-way thing, and it's hard to trust you lot when you've said the same thing many times before, and yet acted just the same as you always do this time around.

OK, so you apologised, but it's easy to say "sorry" when you're not the one who got inconvinienced by it. Saying "sorry" never seems to be enough for me (although, in this case, mainly because no-one even bothered to fucking ask), so I don't see why I should just keep accepting it from you. I need to actually be able to trust you, and it's damn hard to do that when you've shown no indication whatsoever of being trustworthy.

When I fuck up (which I do), I pay the penalty. When you lot fuck up, I still pay the penalty. You do whatever the fuck you like and treat me like some fucking machine with a random number generator set to explode at random intervals. You don't seem to care what the effect of your lack of communication or totally unjust ban is on me, all you care about is making an example of me and trying to stop me from stating my opinion in a way you don't like. You make promises and then don't keep them, you apologise and then do the exact same thing the next time around and you claim that you are trying to help me whilst stabbing me in the fucking back.

OK, I accept that I do make mistakes, and I probably did deserve a warning for that, but there is no way in hell it was justified to jump straight to a ban without any prior warning whatsoever. Yes, I know there was prior history of me doing it, but you said absolutely nothing. It seems to me that this was more a case of you getting pissed off and deciding to say "fuck you Mike" to deter me in the future than it was of you actually making a reasonable and fair decision based on the actual offense, or even past history and actions. If I'd done the same thing to a non-admin, there's no way in hell you'd have banned me outright. It's just pro-mod bias, yet again.

The thing is, I now can't actually have a sensible discussion with you, DP, since I know you are not capable of being reasonable if it gets out of hand, and because Altima outright threatened to perma-ban me if I get angry at you again. You apologise, but you don't actually do anything to back it up. At least two of you admitted the ban was unjust, and Altima said he was sorry for the "abruptness" of it, and yet it still occured regardless, because you couldn't be bothered to actually communicate with me before it happened. Instead, you decided to apologise afterwards, when I'd already been punished and when you'd demonstrated your intent, and pretend that that makes things all happy and OK.

It does not. It's better than you saying "fuck you" and just defending yourselves, but it doesn't magically mean I can trust you, especially given that you have made the exact same promises before.

What reason do I have to think you won't act the exact same way next time? I simply have no reason to trust your decisions any more, and certainly no reason to trust your decision-making process.

Before you say "oh, here we go again" and complain at me for posting this, I did consider not doing so, particularly since I no longer trust you to be remotely fair and just about dealing with things that you might possibly consider "insults", particularly in terms of my opinion of you as moderators. However, all that would do is leave me bitter and resentful. All this would come out anyway, just in an uncontrolled manner that would just cause more arguments. I can't just forget what you did, and I need you to know how I feel about it. If you decide to ban me for this, then so be it, because I can't just stand by and ignore your actions.

Plus, other people have the right to know what you've done. The way you've treated me here is an utter disgrace. As you put it last night, DP, I do not like being fucked over without any recourse, and this is the only recourse that I have. I am sick of paying the consequences for your mistakes and you getting away with it scot-free by virtue of being mods, and I'm really sick of Altima constantly lecturing me whilst providing me with absolutely zero real assistance.

Updated August 23rd, 2012 at 08:15 PM by Mike1984



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  1. Crying_Vegeta's Avatar
    Updated August 23rd, 2012 at 07:52 PM by Crying_Vegeta
  2. Lianru's Avatar
    I thought you didn't need to be warned to be tempbanned if you were already in that "cooldown stage" or whatever was mentioned?
    Updated August 23rd, 2012 at 07:55 PM by Mike1984 (Oops, sorry. Edited back....)
  3. lantzblades's Avatar
    the swearing (my own personal pet peeve but whatever) isn't needed but the rest are good points
  4. Petrikow's Avatar
    Second for Aiur

  5. Mike1984's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Lianru
    I thought you didn't need to be warned to be tempbanned if you were already in that "cooldown stage" or whatever was mentioned?

    Yes, but I wasn't in the cooldown stage, unless the cooldown period lasts at least three months (which I'm pretty damn sure it does not).
  6. I3uster's Avatar
    If DP seriously answers to THIS textwall someone give the man a medal lol.
    Updated August 23rd, 2012 at 07:57 PM by Mike1984 (Damnit....)
  7. Frantic Author's Avatar
    If I was banned again my first act would definitely be to write a blog about how shitty the admins are
  8. Lianru's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Petrikow
    Fourth for Aiur
  9. Mike1984's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by I3uster
    If DP seriously answers to THIS textwall someone give the man a medal lol.
    He probably won't, not least since we discussed a lot of this last night, and it's not like they seem to care about me anyway.

    Honestly, the main one I want to take something from this is Altima, but given that he still resolutely thinks that he was 100% right and hasn't given me anything more than a half-hearted semi-apology even for the total lack of communication, I'm not holding my breath.
  10. Crying_Vegeta's Avatar
    Mike, it's spelled "dammit" trust me
  11. Mike1984's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Crying_Vegeta
    Mike, it's spelled "dammit" trust me
    It's spelt however the fuck I want to spell it.

    Also, I really need to stop pressing the "edit" button instead of the "reply" button. I'm not used to being able to edit other people's posts....
  12. Crying_Vegeta's Avatar
    no no, i really mean that i used to spell it damnit until a friend made me look it up. now i realize it is actually in the dictionary and it is spelled dammit. I'm sorry. :(
  13. Mike1984's Avatar
    That's the US dictionary, though, right?

    I think it might be spelt differently over here....
  14. Crying_Vegeta's Avatar
    Oxford english dictionary? I cant think of any local towns named oxford around here, mike.
  15. Petrikow's Avatar
    It's either damn it, or dammit, not damnit.
  16. Mike1984's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Crying_Vegeta
    Oxford english dictionary? I cant think of any local towns named oxford around here, mike.
    Well, there probably are (there is certainly a "Cambridge" in the US) but, yeah, OK, I get your point.

    I don't care, because I still think it should be spelt "damnit" and I can speak however I like, but you are technically right.
  17. Crying_Vegeta's Avatar
    But you're not speaking, you're spelling. And anyway, if you were speaking, they would be pronounced the same.
  18. RR121's Avatar
    The irony, Mike, is that we agree, for once, except I have limited respect for the admins because I feel like they don't use their banhammers *enough*.

    So, entirely different reasons, same conclusion. Amusing.
  19. Mr. House's Avatar
    Okay, for someone like me who likes to do some research when something happens, I decided to do some inside look and I'm gonna give my own opinion on it (completely unbiased).

    From what I can get, you were complaining a bit about Tobias having someone on his ignore list. Well, complaining might be a bit harsh but let me resume. It was an average discussion and inquiry about it but then there was joking thrown in and your anger started to rise. It soon escalated into an argument between you, the mods, and a couple of the admins. You took the joking seriously and directed your anger to Darpoles, calling him and IRUN fascists and kept it going, despite you having a window where you could have left and cooled down.

    Now, from what you stated in your rant, you were temp banned and you just returned, stating that the ban was inexcusable and all of a sudden with no alert. I wasn't aware of the ban until I noticed it on your posts. After reading your entire rant and learning that some of the admins apologized to you, I can absolutely say that what they did was wrong. But I can also say that you had a chance to stop, leave the thread to cool down but you didn't, which forced them to take action. Overall, both parties are guilty and don't go ranting about it again, cool down because I'm trying to state things from my point of view and wasting time for sleep to do it.

    Look, you can be angry all you want but it won't changed what happened. On the other side, they can say they are sorry, but it won't change the action they took. Like Darpoles said, he can tell Tobias to erase the ignore list but that in turn could effect a thread which would need moderation. It's a simple Catch-22 and yet, the problem revolved around it was blown into proportion. If you were a moderator and you didn't like the situation, which would you prefer: ignoring certain posts or the entire thread?

    Again, I'm not taking sides in this, but place yourself in Tobias's shoes and try to understand where he's coming from. For you to get angry over something like this is rather meaningless and childish. Hell, I'm 17 and I'm able to pay the bills and have an average adult discussion on stuff like this. I may not be a mod, or an admin, hell, I'm not even Evospace but I would have told you to go cool down. If that didn't work and you kept escalating it, I'll need to warn you, telling you that if you didn't cool down, I would have to have a temp ban placed on you.

    The way all this happened, it was quick, poor judgement from the mods/admins but it's also your fault for keeping it going. Americans take insults differently than the British, or Europeans for that matter. It's a cultural aspect that makes up a part of us. Next time, when something like this happens, go cool down before a shitstorm happens because there might be no return if this was to happen again. You don't have to like it, but you do have to accept and deal with it; it's life.

    Anyways, these are just my two cents in this matter.
  20. Crying_Vegeta's Avatar
    Excuse me, but we were talking about spelling.
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