Beam's Blog of Writing and Other Things.

Legally, it isn't quite rape.

It's still a disgusting thing for him to have done and should probably have a similar emotional impact. Possibly worse.

Hmmm.... I wouldn't say Utena would consider it rape. Other might think it they ever end knowing it, either through Utena or another person.

And I wouldn't think 14 years old aren't underage in any part of the world. Either way, Akio seduced Utena, so I wouldn't say it was rape either. Just normal sex. No scratch the 'normal' part, it was just sex.

Either way, looking forward to the update. *winks*

I could go with the old gimmick about the rape, but it's getting old (except for those rare moments where it's just so unexpected and yet, it's funny).

Just do what you want, it'll still be enjoyable.

Oh yeah, avatar update (ala Misaya Reiroukan).

Originally Posted by GabrieliosP

Hmmm.... I wouldn't say Utena would consider it rape. Other might think it they ever end knowing it, either through Utena or another person.

And I wouldn't think 14 years old aren't underage in any part of the world. Either way, Akio seduced Utena, so I wouldn't say it was rape either. Just normal sex. No scratch the 'normal' part, it was just sex.

Either way, looking forward to the update. *winks*

Actually 14 is underage in quite a few places in the world.

Originally Posted by Aiden

Actually 14 is underage in quite a few places in the world.

I should have expressed myself better. I meant:

"AFAIK, 14 is underage everywhere."

Well I dunno about US Law but here in Mexico that's called statutory rape since while there was consent it was through manipulative means [Between a minor and an adult]. As a trivia, Mexico's age of consent is 14. So legally speaking it was.

As for how Utena would see it, well I have never seen Utena (*gasp* goes the audience) so I wouldn't know. Sorry for not being helpful u.u

It feels like that much rape, it is rape, bugger the legal wrangling. (I give that as my own view and as my view on what Utena should feel. Perhaps she would struggle over whether it is rape herself, because she gave consent, but I don't think she could avoid feeling that it was a terrible violation).

For something more considered, yes, it still is rape. Statutory rape is the term for such a thing, where even if consent has been given, the law provides that there are other issues to be considered (age, pressure, etc.) To give another example, the UK's age of consent is 16. But if a teacher seduces a 16- or 17-year old, that counts as statutory rape because there's too many issues of authority and pressure.

Originally Posted by Aiden

Legally, it isn't quite rape.

It's still a disgusting thing for him to have done and should probably have a similar emotional impact. Possibly worse.

I beg to differ. legally, it was rape, as consent from an underaged party is legally meaningless. (Utena is 14, and age of consent is - in the country with the lowest AoC - 14 years.

Morally? Far more dubious. He stacked the deck in his favor in a disgusting way, but Utena had every opportunity to say no.

It's still deplorable, and Akio is still a bastard. Treat it as tantamount to it in your writing. Akio is a sly bastard with ulterior motives up his ass. Condeming him like the prick he is, isn't a problem

the only reason statutory rape exists is because people who arent cool enough to get girlfriends that young are just jealous and want to piss on everyone elses' parade.

Already told you my opinion in loving detail, but to sum it up for the blog-goers:

Yeah. Rape. Even if it wasn't technically rape (And by her age, it mighta been!), in spirit, it was.

Most people seem to just be defining the act. Not really sure if people are answering the edited part where Beam asks what Utena should think of it.

H'okay, I haven't watched Utena but from your prompt, I'd like to venture a possibility.

Whether it's rape or not depends on the standard being used by the person judging. Play up the ambiguity. Let everyone have different opinions. But I'd suggest the possibility that Utena says it's not rape. Not because she believes so, but because it's a coping mechanism. She says it to convince herself that she had some measure of control, that she wasn't suckered or pressured. It was her choice.

Lancer and Archer, but Lancer in particular, say bollocks to that, she's a kid, doesn't know any better, and she got taken advantage of. Utena doesn't like that because hey, someone just called her helpless and defenseless. She could have refused Akio, she just didn't. So she wasn't raped, she just made a mistake. She doesn't like the connotations that she was raped because she feels it doesn't represent her well. Could make her sound like damaged goods.

Basically, everyone treats it as rape or so-close-it-doesn't-matter, and Utena doesn't like the implications and insists otherwise. Nice bit of drama and conflict between well-meaning characters.

I was going to say something pretty similar to what Hymn did, but he essentially beat me to it.

I'll expand a bit on it though, by going a bit more into the psychological aspects of it (as I'm apt to do). Apologies if some of this goes into ramifications that don't apply to your story - never saw or read Utena (wanted to, though) and haven't read said story, either. I think if you're sticking fairly close to canon settings, though, it should apply perfectly fine as-is.

Not only is it basically a coping mechanism for her, she could certainly be thinking about what other people would think of her if she accuses him of raping her - or worse, whether people will believe her (after all, they may well not) and also what Akio might do if people came hunting for him, and burdening Anthy with having to deal with either Utena being a "crazy girl" or with her brother being a rapist.

So even if Utena personally feels she was raped, she would be potentially making things worse for others, for herself, and especially for Anthy by voicing this - and so the "lesser evil" is to lie to herself and insist - at least to others - that it wasn't rape, which makes Akio even more of a scheming, manipulative bastard who basically got away with pressuring her into statutory rape.

Of course, this is likely going to bite him in the ass - hard - later. Whether there will be no collateral damage or not is hard to say, but in the end, I think he'll be exposed at about the worst possible time - and when he least expects it, with some proof that makes it very, very clear what happened. And if she can't do that, she may well take justice into her own hands. As the saying goes, "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned."

Hymn: it'd have to be Archer. Lancer wouldn't see having sex with a 14-year-old as "rape" and, honestly, he probably wouldn't care if it was.

Originally Posted by Hymn of Ragnarok

Lancer and Archer, but Lancer in particular, say bollocks to that, she's a kid, doesn't know any better, and she got taken advantage of. Utena doesn't like that because hey, someone just called her helpless and defenseless. She could have refused Akio, she just didn't. So she wasn't raped, she just made a mistake. She doesn't like the connotations that she was raped because she feels it doesn't represent her well. Could make her sound like damaged goods.

Basically, everyone treats it as rape or so-close-it-doesn't-matter, and Utena doesn't like the implications and insists otherwise. Nice bit of drama and conflict between well-meaning characters.

Honestly, I pretty much agree with Hymn, except for the thing that Mike pointed out. Lancer's from a different era and older guys seducing younger women wasn't something that uncommon to him. He wouldn't like it, but he'd be more morally objective that Aiko was a dick to her and not that he pressured her into it. Because Lancer knows you treat women well, and this guy didn't and used them for his own gain. That's what is going to piss Lancer off. (And Lancer wouldn't "victimize" Utena either. He'd chalk it up to she made a mistake and this guy needs his head handed to him on a platter.)

Archer on the other hand would probably be seeing RAPE flags everywhere and probably would victimize her. Just because his mindset is more conservative in these sort of things. He'd see it as, "You didn't want this, he pressured you into it, so yes the bastard raped you. Now tell me where he is so I can rain swords on him until he's a bloody smear." Which would piss Utena off because Archer's taking what little power she has away from her.

Utena may not think of it as rape, and that would be a coping mechanism for her, which Archer would bring crashing down.

I am actually not certain, some of the context of the situation is lost on me, but as a general note Lancer has shown tendancy to refer to women as objects and "plunder" of a sense. he might take issue with someone doing something to a girl he considered his, but as a general rule he doesnt really seem to care to much how someone else treats whats theirs.

"Ohsorry, kid. I guess I let my hand do the talking."
He didn't kill the boy since it was unconscious.
But it would not have been unconscious if Tohsaka Rin looked paler and her clothes were more disordered. He would have consciously tried to blow the boy's head off if that were the case.
Actually, Lancer does not care how a captive is treated.
But he will not tolerate having his spoils snatched by someone else.
Spoils for him are enemies he has to kill and women he favors.

quote from UBW


EDIT: Incidentally, on the original question, pressuring someone into sex that they didnt want is forcible rape in my book, even if they said yes if they were pressured into doing so. I dont mark much difference in physically forcing someone to hold still and emotionally/psychologically forcing someone to.

Originally Posted by Tobias

EDIT: Incidentally, on the original question, pressuring someone into sex that they didnt want is forcible rape in my book, even if they said yes if they were pressured into doing so. I dont mark much difference in physically forcing someone to hold still and emotionally/psychologically forcing someone to.

The problem with this is that, if you define "pressurising" broadly enough, that's probably something that virtually everyone has done at some point or another. It's a natural reaction to pressurise people to act as we want them to act, even if it is possible to take it too far.

Also, where did you get that UBW extract from? Because some of it really doesn't make sense....

Yeah, I admit I kind of screwed up on accounting for the fact that Lancer is from a different era. Not sure what I was thinking, it was something about Lancer responding more passionately, and then it became....that. So I'll retract that. I still think Lancer would respond with anger, but more along the lines of, "A kid I like got fucked with. Literally. In a bad way. Where is this asshole, I'm going to shove Gae Bolg through his heart. Via said asshole. Sit tight kiddo, he won't be a problem for long."

Unless he proposes Utena getting her own revenge. But otherwise, I think he'd still be asking for directions to rip Akio a new one. Maybe not if he's not very attached to Utena, but I've been getting the feeling that he will be attached soon. In which case, murder time. Fucking with him and his? Not happening. Might not be able to undo it, but he can sure as hell make sure it doesn't happen again (with Akio).

....Yeah, at the moment I see Lancer responding two ways: displeasure and distaste and making a mental note to keep an eye out for a certain asshole (but not taking a proactive and violent approach), or planning future murder. Archer responds with well meaning comfort, but really doesn't help Utena's state of mind. He'd also probably want Akio dead, but less for revenge and more to make sure it doesn't happen again, to Utena or anyone else.

The problem with this is that, if you define "pressurising" broadly enough, that's probably something that virtually everyone has done at some point or another. It's a natural reaction to pressurise people to act as we want them to act, even if it is possible to take it too far.

Since I dont have to draw a legal distinction, just a moral one, I would draw the line at the point where somebody wants to do it before they actually do, and at no point feels something bad will happen if they dont. something bad runs the gambit from being beaten up or the guy they love will leave them, or hell, they will be made fun of at school.

Also, where did you get that UBW extract from? Because some of it really doesn't make sense....

its the interlude right after Lancer punches shinji off rin, before kotomine shows up

Originally Posted by Tobias

Since I dont have to draw a legal distinction, just a moral one, I would draw the line at the point where somebody wants to do it before they actually do, and at no point feels something bad will happen if they dont. something bad runs the gambit from being beaten up or the guy they love will leave them, or hell, they will be made fun of at school.

That's still a pretty broad definition, particularly the "guy they love will leave them" bit. I mean, it's not entirely unreasonable for a guy to leave a girl (or vice-versa) because their sexual appetites don't match up, and I don't think that telling the girl (or guy) that, if she's unwilling to have sex, you don't want a relationship with her constitutes "rape".

its the interlude right after Lancer punches shinji off rin, before kotomine shows up

Did you typo it or something? Because what you posted is nonsensical in parts....