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EMIYA, Rand, and Social Justice

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The topic is a little old now, but I'm feeling restless. This is not a general endorsement of the presented ideas.

Quote Originally Posted by Howard Roark, from The Fountainhead
"Men have been taught that their first concern is to relieve the suffering of others. But sufferingis a disease. Should one come upon it, one tries to give relief and assistance. To make thatthe highest test of virtue is to make suffering the most important part of life. Then man mustwish to see others suffer--in order that he may be virtuous. Such is the nature of altruism. Thecreator is not concerned with disease, but with life. Yet the work of the creators has eliminatedone form of disease after another, in man's body and spirit, and brought more relief fromsuffering than any altruist could ever conceive.
Quote Originally Posted by Kotomine
You should know. Your wish will not come true unless there is a clear evil. Even if it's not something you approve of, a hero of justice requires a villain to defeat.
In The Fountainhead, Ayn Rand suggests the altruist as an empty individual, devoted to filling their interests by accepting the desires of others and dedicating their time to expressing the value of charity. These characters are without exception represented solely to highlight their flaws. Like caricatures, they are empty of true competence, emotionally bland, or histrionic, and ultimately, reliant entirely on others to achieve validation. Like the tentacles of a great kraken, or perhaps merely like crabs in a bucket, they bring down things of value without any real thought at all. This class of person either detests or cannot begin to consider that something done entirely for oneself can be good.

Groupthink and the need to prove oneself as properly concerned with those less fortunate presents itself, in the social circles of the story, as the factor that destroys any real creativity or solvency of application. People concerned solely with the opinion of others decide that it is proper to believe what others believe. Endlessly seeking affirmation and really, creating nothing at all.

Donations, charity events, social work, the development of low-income housing projects, and sympathy for the unremarkable all represent the shallowest form of altruism in this novel. Acts like these are validation of the self through others. At the same time, it is a reaffirmation that the person who gives has power over the person who receives, because one exists at the whims of the other.

This is what Rand means by selfless: eternally seeking validation in the collective.

And then there is Shirou, who Nasu presents as the closest a person can become to selfless. But, within the narrative, it's quite clear that he doesn't exactly match the pattern that Rand sets for this sort of character.

Shirou presents strong internal motivation. He believes in taking care of himself, and a rigorous exercise routine. Socially, he's almost well-adjusted from an external perspective. Note, however, that he maintains a clear division between the opinions that are his and those that belong to others. He gives large portions of his time to the correction of problems, to the point that he earns himself a nickname for just that.

There are already a great many analyses of his character that I agree with (i.e. all of Fate/Stay Night), and I don't have the space to rehash those points here.

But, isn't that interesting? Toward his chosen goal, Shirou expresses all the single-minded passion of Roark working on his buildings. His chosen priority is difficult to grasp from an external perspective. As far as it goes, his is a character dedicated to becoming an ally of justice, and the story is a multifaceted explanation of why that can't be. Consider one final thing about him: that he is, for choosing to continue despite acknowledging these contradictions, quite insane. Turn this around, and it seems clear that for establishing his good on the condition of others, Shirou is about as selfless as the unreal creature that Rand painted as empty.

But we like him, because he fights for justice, right? That makes him good, doesn't it?

Of course, that's because his world gives him the villains to fight. His endless determination is also admirable in its own right. But, there is no "villain" that holds the strings of all the real world's injustices.

The fundamental tenet of the world's most prominent religions is that suffering is the central virtue of existence. It promises "salvation" in the afterlife through endless repentance. Compare this with the ideology of Ellsworth Toohey, who establishes a cult-like following by expounding upon the "higher satisfaction" to be gained by erasing the ego and accepting the will of a collective.

Now, what is the sum of infinite zeroes?

The central problem with social justice as a movement is precisely the same. Like organized religion, or the bizarre quest to reject the ego, social justice movements speak primarily of the guilt of the status quo, pointing to highly-publicized incidents and drawing from them the justification for behavior that is unproductive, for the most part, and actively destructive, in minority.

Much like the architects of the Cortlandt homes fussed and wasted the resources of the public on adding their own flourish to a complete building, the general proponents of the social justice movement(s) justify toxic, rude behavior as an acceptable action because the goal itself is defined as positive a priori.

Consider the testimony below:



In general, statements made on the internet about a particular issue are not effective solutions to the issue. In presenting a criticism of the status quo, one only reaffirms one's moral virtue by screaming out an opinion into the largest echo chamber that has ever been opened for human use, without taking on the effort of contributing a reasonable point of discussion for the education of others or having to expend the effort necessary to actually produce something interesting for the world to consume and experience.

And at the same time I make the concession that suffering has been propagated by systems of oppression, such as African apartheid, National Socialism, and African slavery and segregation, but just as we do not demand restitution for the innocent Frenchmen beheaded in the Reign of Terror, it would also be prudent to focus not on righting the ills of the distant past, but instead on doing something of productive value in the present.

h y u u

Updated December 8th, 2015 at 12:45 AM by Frostyvale

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  1. Kirby's Avatar
    de aru
  2. Rafflesiac's Avatar
    C+, you pass

    A fascinating read.

    I do wonder though: If everyone focused on theirs and only theirs, only seeking their own self-improvement, would the problems of society right themselves? There has to be someone to look outward, no?
    Updated December 8th, 2015 at 01:05 AM by Rafflesiac
  3. Frostyvale's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafflesiac
    I do wonder though: If everyone focused on theirs and only theirs, only seeking their own self-improvement, would the problems of society right themselves? There has to be someone to look outward, no?
    That's correct.

    There is no problem with purposeful observation and criticism. Those are very useful, and generally have a positive contribution to society.

    Criticism for its own sake is superfluous, just as is endless externalization, unless one intends to exist solely for others. (And presuming that to be the goal, most of the people who do this sort of thing aren't doing it very well.)
  4. You's Avatar
  5. Ivan The Mouse's Avatar
    So, does this mean that Shirou's not a good model of a selfless individual because his reality is unrealistic?

    Wait, I thought we should know this already.
  6. Cremela's Avatar
    The fundamental tenet of the world's most prominent religions is that suffering is the central virtue of existence. It promises "salvation" in the afterlife through endless repentance.
    Would dispute this. Speaking re. Christianity definitely depends on the denomination. Think same goes for Islam.

    Suffering itself isn't the virtue it's being able to persist though the inevitable suffering of this world. Repeated repentance is def something the Catholic Church emphasises, as it's nigh inevitable people mess up, but part of that repentance is supposed to be the resolve to not do it again (self improvement). Many denominations (eg. Lutheran ones) emphasise you either being saved or not through Faith, Scripture or God's Grace alone (Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura). Interestingly I think they have something about "sinners" as opposed to the saved being capable of good deeds, but they are done for selfish reasons.

    Compare this with the ideology of Ellsworth Toohey, who establishes a cult-like following by expounding upon the "higher satisfaction" to be gained by erasing the ego and accepting the will of a collective.
    Haven't read The Fountainhead, but in contrast to the literal interpretation of hell being a literal place of fire and brimstone used in Western Christianity, Eastern Orthodox Churches have an idea of Hell being you isolating yourself from God (and the communion of Saints too I think). It's like the reverse of Hell being other people. Imagine being locked in a room with everything you would ever need, but no-one to talk to. Not even over the internet; just you to remember everything you've ever done...

    That idea really speaks to me because being normally nervous in social situations around people I know I isolated myself in my room alot when not attending lectures at Uni and ended up feeling really bad compared to when I did go out, which I found really counter-intuitive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rafflesiac
    I do wonder though: If everyone focused on theirs and only theirs, only seeking their own self-improvement, would the problems of society right themselves? There has to be someone to look outward, no?
    Depends what focusing on theirs and only theirs looks like. If it means you don't care about what suffering you and yours inflict on other people ala BNP, Bosnian Genocide, Nazi Party etc. probably not.
  7. SeiKeo's Avatar
    And at the same time I make the concession that suffering has been propagated by systems of oppression, such as African apartheid, National Socialism, and African slavery and segregation, but just as we do not demand restitution for the innocent Frenchmen beheaded in the Reign of Terror, it would also be prudent to focus not on righting the ills of the distant past, but instead on doing something of productive value in the present.
    You're behind the times.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...ations/361631/
  8. SeiKeo's Avatar
    In any case, regarding what we have come to call the 'social justice' movement, I think that you've missed the point, or at least declined to mention it. Doing something productive in the present, and righting the ills of the distant past are one and the same, in this understanding, because it's impossible to talk about why problems in the present exist absent a past. Can you truly come up with coherent picture of African-American poverty in 2015 without the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow? Not really, and so on for the other things. The method, I agree, is very questionable and tends to misidentify their most important objectives, but what can you do.
  9. Ratman's Avatar
    An amazing way to connect SJW themes with the FSN themes. I am taken aback. Shame you had to involve Ayn Rand.

    Is it a proof of concept, will you continue doing so? Some people might not want to see it on a forum on principle.
    Updated December 9th, 2015 at 11:12 AM by Ratman
  10. Kotonoha's Avatar
    I would revive beastslair.txt for this but it's over 140 characters.
  11. Frostyvale's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Wongdong Modernart
    In any case, regarding what we have come to call the 'social justice' movement, I think that you've missed the point, or at least declined to mention it. Doing something productive in the present, and righting the ills of the distant past are one and the same, in this understanding, because it's impossible to talk about why problems in the present exist absent a past. Can you truly come up with coherent picture of African-American poverty in 2015 without the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow? Not really, and so on for the other things. The method, I agree, is very questionable and tends to misidentify their most important objectives, but what can you do.
    Well this is kind of the problem.

    Historically, these issues are very relevant and understanding them is necessary to understand the impact of social divisions. At the same time, it's incredibly emotional rhetoric which distorts the problems people actually face today, and also conflates the problems in the modern world with those of the 19th and 20th centuries. Not just by indicating the chain of causation between atrocities and modern injustice, but by adding such a substantial emotional charge that an otherwise innocuous issue can immediately become divisive.

    Take for example the case of the University of Missouri, in which a random fellow's act of malice somehow convinced people that the university itself ought to take culpability. The actions of the protest group were severely disruptive, while also attacking an institution that they had no cause to blame.

    I really ought to have expressed myself better, and I regret that I didn't, because the atrocities that the past holds don't deserve to be cheapened by being applied to this situation. In the most general sense, the moral judgement that we can make about those events should be independent of most cases of discrimination in the modern day. Including, and especially, those involving nothing more than offensive language.

    To be perfectly clear, there is not a thing I will say to defend the sort of fool that feels the need to act the part of his racist ancestors. However, there is quite a lot more to be said about the sort of fool who will take this as an excuse to waste people's time to express a disproportionate amount of outrage.
    Updated December 9th, 2015 at 04:21 PM by Frostyvale
  12. Frostyvale's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman
    An amazing way to connect SJW themes with the FSN themes. I am taken aback. Shame you had to involve Ayn Rand.

    Is it a proof of concept, will you continue doing so? Some people might not want to see it on a forum on principle.
    Rand's writing is questionable in a lot of cases, but I just thought that the comparison might be interesting to make.
  13. Frostyvale's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Cremela
    Would dispute this. Speaking re. Christianity definitely depends on the denomination. Think same goes for Islam.

    Suffering itself isn't the virtue it's being able to persist though the inevitable suffering of this world. Repeated repentance is def something the Catholic Church emphasises, as it's nigh inevitable people mess up, but part of that repentance is supposed to be the resolve to not do it again (self improvement). Many denominations (eg. Lutheran ones) emphasise you either being saved or not through Faith, Scripture or God's Grace alone (Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura). Interestingly I think they have something about "sinners" as opposed to the saved being capable of good deeds, but they are done for selfish reasons.
    That's valid, perhaps. I trust your knowledge on this subject. Though, ignoring the semantics, I don't see how this contradicts the idea that repentance is generally demanded in payment for a fundamental guilt, be it original sin, or simply the continuous veneration of the greater ideal (God) and the minimization of the individual.

    Haven't read The Fountainhead, but in contrast to the literal interpretation of hell being a literal place of fire and brimstone used in Western Christianity, Eastern Orthodox Churches have an idea of Hell being you isolating yourself from God (and the communion of Saints too I think). It's like the reverse of Hell being other people. Imagine being locked in a room with everything you would ever need, but no-one to talk to. Not even over the internet; just you to remember everything you've ever done...
    Every separate flavor of Christianity comes with its own little bits of fun. I like Calvinism because it emphasizes the futility of human agency in order to inspire an even more fervent expression of faith.
  14. Cremela's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Frostyvale
    Though, ignoring the semantics, I don't see how this contradicts the idea that repentance is generally demanded in payment for a fundamental guilt, be it original sin, or simply the continuous veneration of the greater ideal (God) and the minimization of the individual.
    Was more trying to make the point that the whole repentance thing (mentioned to be needed for the acceptance of the "lesser" people of the collective) didn't necessarily result in the demeaning of the the individual.

    In terms of repentance "demanded in payment for a fundamental guilt" I wouldn't say that's necessarily a bad thing; if someone's done something wrong, rejecting and feeling regret over it is one of the steps to repairing any damage it may have done to others and subsequent self improvement. On the other hand there are many organisations, social and religious who use shame and telling people to repent to control people and demean the individual (Tumbler SJWs being an excellent example).