I create a world of finite somethings

Touko is alpha enough, as is Aoko.

Aoko is boring when she could just blow Enzou up, problem solved.

Actually, why don't you just think the characters that you portray best and just get from those based on who you think is best for the roles you want?

Well, I would imagine that Zouken and the Einsberns would be involved, and the Einsberns are capable of providing an entire army of OCs. All of which look rather like Ilya, for added Shirou angst....

But, yeah, such a story would have to be rather OC-heavy. Rin, Waver, Shirou and Sakura would play a big role, though, as would the sub-plot of getting rid of Zouken and freeing Sakura from his control.

Nah, I already did Zouken trying to reassert himself for a story, I don't need to do that again. Sakura would be involved because she's present, related to the people involved, and might wanna help, not because I need to contrive a rescue plot for her in there.

And as for characters that I portray best or roles I want, that isn't how I construct a story. Characters come first. I decide what the plot is going to do based around who gets involved, not the other way around. "I need a master magus for this part ... Sion!" is almost like pandering to fanservice cameo whims in my head. No, it's "Luvia would want in on this because she wouldn't want Rin to one-up her, and that means the Edelfelts are in, which means other magi families might want in..." regardless to the fact that I've never written Luvia.

Well, surely Sakura does need rescuing, unless it's been done already. Further, if he is alive, Zouken will definitely be involved, and against the dismantling. Which, in turn, would make it very difficult for Sakura to assist Rin and Shirou.

I'm not saying you need to "contrive a rescue plot", I'm saying that a "rescue plot" comes naturally from the fact that Zouken will be strongly against dismantling the Grail (since he requires it to survive) and that Sakura will still be under his control if she's not been freed at an earlier date. I'm not sure how you can not do a rescue plot, unless you have her rescued in the backstory (or kill her off, but I would obviously be strongly opposed to that...).

Making everything about saving Sakura only emphasizes how much of a victim she is. I would think you'd appreciate it if she were a proactive sort instead of an eternal victim in a story.

Ahh, I see. As you said, it's a clusterfuck problem.

Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart

Making everything about saving Sakura only emphasizes how much of a victim she is. I would think you'd appreciate it if she were a proactive sort instead of an eternal victim in a story.

Yeah, I would. However, as long as Zouken is in control of her, she can't be "proactive", except to do things she does not wish to do. It's simply a matter of realism.

I'm not saying it has to involve a rescue mission, but I don't see how to use her without one, either in-story or prior to it. Further, without her being rescued at some stage, I can't see her having anything but a bad end. Zouken cannot be killed without rescuing her, and Zouken will definitely go all out to fight their actions if he is not already dead. He has too much to lose not to.

I dunno about dragging in some of KnK and Tsuki: it's supposed to be a big MA furball, isn't it? Pull Lorelei and department heads?

Which is like barely a step above OCs, since we have jack to go on about their abilities and personalities.

[REDACTED]

The key to writing OCs is to not write "OCs." Just write characters and people; don't think of them as being characters you've created for this universe, just think of them as characters you've created.

Have you ever written any original fiction? It's pretty much the same as that, when it comes to thinking up characters. There's no need at all to think of them as "OCs," especially with the negative connotations of that in the realm of fanfiction. You don't hear regular authors calling their characters "OCs," and the best way to avoid OCs is to avoid thinking of them in that strict manner.

Basically, just write about people, and then give them some Nasuverse flavour.

LOL, ever written original fiction.

That's not the key for me, though, because that's not true for me. They may be characters, but in writing fanfiction, I'm mimicking characterization from a canon source, so there's limits to what I'm doing in terms of thinking as if I were the writer of that world. Characterization is shit easy, but making them gel with the world at large is not, because it is not my world. Adding onto something already established is, to me, like going in and adding on extra layers of paint to something a brilliant artist has already composed. Unless you're extremely careful, people will notice.

Then try to get into the mindset of the author and how he approaches character creation, get familliar with how his world (not necessarily his works) work and then go from there?

Nasu's characters are embodiments of concepts or ideas. Shells for mindsets or philosophies, which he uses to make a point or to discuss something. You have the personality part already done. Now add abilities which reflect that, because that's Nasu's thing.
Done.

The characters of Nasu aren't that hard to imitate. What really makes or breaks them is if you write them like Nasu did. Or you can just go Narita and go crazy with the Nasuverse mechanics in an entertaining way.

...also, I kinda don't think you need much OCs for this, really. The main part of this premise always seemed like a Waver vs Zouken matchup thing to me.

Originally Posted by I3uster

The main part of this premise always seemed like a Waver vs Zouken matchup thing to me.

Well, he seems to be trying to avoid that, although he didn't bother to actually reply to my comment, so I'm not entirely sure....

Originally Posted by I3uster

Nasu's characters are embodiments of concepts or ideas. Shells for mindsets or philosophies, which he uses to make a point or to discuss something. You have the personality part already done. Now add abilities which reflect that, because that's Nasu's thing.

I know you haven't read anything I've done but D&J, but that really isn't the problem, again. It isn't a definable problem, really, but actually I think it's your own words that kind of sum it up: no matter how well crafted they might be, putting OCs shoulder-to-shoulder with canon characters still just feels weird no matter how expertly delivered they might be. On top of the fact that why readers should care about an OC is always going to be an issue too--the "if I wanted that I could read an original story" sort of deal. Yes, I know not everyone thinks like that. No, people still will drop it for not want of an OC. To varying degrees, but even just within my own fanfiction, Fate/Far Side is more popular than Escaping Fate is, partially because of the OC thing.

This isn't really an issue of Nasuverse mechanics that I'm talking about. It's more abstract and has to do with more of a general obstacle the narrative will have with that canon versus original sense. I Am Not There kind of touches on it, how half the speakers aren't canon characters, yet required to fulfill the narrative, but if they're required as a function then they're always going to be weaker than if I just came up with them for something original, ect ect ect. The imitation may be able to defeat the original, but there's still degradation from the imitation.

And I never got the impression it was a Waver versus Zouken thing. The info we have on it is "Association wants it, stands opposite of Waver and Rin" so it was always in my head excluding the three that started it. Waver and Rin's part is probably going to be separate from Shirou's part, though, which will probably be an issue with Angra Mainyu itself.

Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart

And I never got the impression it was a Waver versus Zouken thing. The info we have on it is "Association wants it, stands opposite of Waver and Rin" so it was always in my head excluding the three that started it. Waver and Rin's part is probably going to be separate from Shirou's part, though, which will probably be an issue with Angra Mainyu itself.

Well, Rin is explicitly stated to be involved, and I can't imagine Zouken or Acht just ignoring it if they are still alive and active. They just have too much to lose.

It does seem like Acht, at least, might just give up, because iirc they stop making grail containers after 5th war. Zouken, yeah, seems to be in it for the long haul, though whether he'd even be in the loop of knowing there are factions wanting it dismantled or is even still necessarily "alive and active" is still up for grabs too.

Originally Posted by Arashi_Leonhart

I know you haven't read anything I've done but D&J, but that really isn't the problem, again. It isn't a definable problem, really, but actually I think it's your own words that kind of sum it up: no matter how well crafted they might be, putting OCs shoulder-to-shoulder with canon characters still just feels weird no matter how expertly delivered they might be. On top of the fact that why readers should care about an OC is always going to be an issue too--the "if I wanted that I could read an original story" sort of deal. Yes, I know not everyone thinks like that. No, people still will drop it for not want of an OC. To varying degrees, but even just within my own fanfiction, Fate/Far Side is more popular than Escaping Fate is, partially because of the OC thing.

This isn't really an issue of Nasuverse mechanics that I'm talking about. It's more abstract and has to do with more of a general obstacle the narrative will have with that canon versus original sense. I Am Not There kind of touches on it, how half the speakers aren't canon characters, yet required to fulfill the narrative, but if they're required as a function then they're always going to be weaker than if I just came up with them for something original, ect ect ect. The imitation may be able to defeat the original, but there's still degradation from the imitation.

And I never got the impression it was a Waver versus Zouken thing. The info we have on it is "Association wants it, stands opposite of Waver and Rin" so it was always in my head excluding the three that started it. Waver and Rin's part is probably going to be separate from Shirou's part, though, which will probably be an issue with Angra Mainyu itself.

(I read "I am not there", the Ciel lemon and the "Didn't even make it..." series thingies, though I really have to get into Fate/Far Side because I love your style. Just procrastinating on fanfic reading really hard)
I think I know what you mean, and it's a reason why a lot of people just go full-OC for their stories. They feel like a foreign element, just like visiting your friends and somehow everyone is chatting as if they were best friends with Bob, the guy you never even saw once in your entire life.
The thing is, you are already writing off a premise that needs the characters (in your opinion). If that's the case, this feeling is mitigated already, because they are necessary elements. Connect them with canon characters, make them mesh, and don't put too much focus on them and it will...well, it will never completely work because you are not Nasu, but you'll get the closest to "working" you'll ever get if you do it well.

After taking care of that the issue it is just an issue of people not reading stories with OCs in them on principle, and well:

You already have the reputation on BL to get enough feedback and a big readership that would read it even with the OCs. If the flaw is just with the readers then there's nothing you can do about it. The cameo route is just fanservice. Of course that gets you satisfied readers, but the work overall suffers from that. Your choice.