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Originally Posted by KENTA

Something I want to bring to your attention to that rather long post is this: Your main selling point to "Turn him right the fuck now" is Austin. KOTR 96 happened in June. The WWF didn't turn Steve Austin until March of 1997. Daniel Bryan started getting these reactions a month ago, and they have clearly taken notice. It will probably take less time for DB to turn than it did Steve Austin, and honestly if they go the rest of the year with him as a heel I'll eat a pair of blue jeans.

I'm pretty sure they're smarter about this now, yeah. Austin's turn was the twilight years of the overt Kayfabe era; the time when the good guys were obviously good (Hi, Bob "Sparkplug" Holly!) and the bad guys were obviously bad. I mean, even Mankind at this point was some kind of twisted, demented freak. Very few people could get away with tweening at that time - I think the only one who pulled it off successfully, before Austin, was the Undertaker, and arguably Scott Hall/Razor Ramon and Kevin Nash/Diesel, who were both a few years "ahead" of the curve. And then within 18 months of this promo... the tables totally turn - in the WWF, you got DeGeneration X, and Austin, and The Rock began coming into his own shortly after, and Triple H went from genuflecting Connecticut blue-blood to sassy smartass (and then later to the sledgehammer-wielding guy we all know today). In WCW, of course, a month later we had the famous birth of the nWo - the one thing that, if it had been played out a little bit better, might - just might - have brought Vince to his knees; McMahon admitted since then that at some points, WWE finances were "smoke and mirrors." The two had to constantly top the bar, over, and over, and over. That is what generated the best 3 years of wrestling we had since Hulkamania, helped along a little bit by a little stalwart called ECW and the extreme events some of their vets did when in other pastures. (Everyone who ever watched that KotR 1998 Hell in a Cell match live knows exactly what I'm talking about.)

Originally Posted by KENTA

Now, another point you bring up is what will come to compete and I'd like to stop you right there. That line of thinking is purely destructive for any company worth its salt. You never try competing with the top dog until the fans are demanding it. Even then you don't try to compete that much, because it's not worth it. If you present your product better and if you continue to make sound decisions your business will grow, and eventually you will overcome any obstacle in your way. It's how the WWF rose to the top, it's how New Japan Pro Wrestling rose to the top, and it's how any successful business rises to the top.

Absolutely correct. The problem is, even the "next big dog" is simply not that big. People complain about TNA routinely being a piece of shit (and it's mostly justified) and let's face it, ROH is just a blip on the radar and little else. There's no good competition - so what reason, really, does Vince have to re-innovate his package? Absolutely none. After all, people are still buying tickets, and short of arena bombs, not much can change that.

Originally Posted by KENTA

The best example I can give of trying to compete with the top dog and failing is with Sega. For a while it had a tagline of "Sega does what Nintendon't". It was brilliant marketing and Sega should have held every advantage. But because it was too busy trying to compete with Nintendo instead of strengthening the Genesis, they couldn't keep up. And along comes Sony, who only entered the fray because Nintendo wouldn't hold up its side of the bargain, and they start dominating the juggernaut. Why? Because they did what they wanted to do. Because they presented a solid product, gave it good support, and never tried to overcome the top dog, just become bigger than him. And that's how any wrestling business should look at the current scene.

Nintendo did have one important strategic advantage, too, though, which you forgot: Basically, exclusivity. You could only make so many games a year, Nintendo totally dictated the terms, and if you had the balls to try to go to other platforms, Nintendo would mysteriously have "chip shortages" or "cartridge shortages" and so you couldn't sell as many units - basically, they blackballed them. What you said about Sony is true, but it was also due to timing - by the time Sony came in, lots of that stuff had been struck down by courts, and furthermore, Sony also had approximately a one year advantage or thereabouts where the PlayStation could gain a foothold versus the Nintendo 64. That, and also, some big, big franchises defected (Final Fantasy VII anyone?) plus some totally new ones got their start (Resident Evil for example) and they just totally propped Sony up to the gold mines. Sega, for what it's worth, mostly stuck with first or second-party titles... and it had inept management (especially at the North America level) that pretty much doomed it.

Originally Posted by KENTA

Not too long ago the Wrestling Retribution Product began. It has attempted to take wrestling to a whole different place, and I think when it finally emerges it will be successful. Gone is the usual format that WWE, TNA, and hell even ROH uses. Gone are the bright lights and live television. WRP sets everything up like an actual TV show, but with wrestling. There are main characters, overarching storylines, cliffhangers, seasons, all that good stuff. So already it presents a different product from the get go, but it also takes a few other things and turns them on their heads.

Really? This is the first I've heard of something like this. It's definitely a radical departure, but I agree, if something else does "win it big," it will indeed be a bit radical. Whether it tops WWE or not... that's up to debate. I'd like to see more of this, if you got any links.

Originally Posted by KENTA

For example, Shawn Daivari has been typecasted(for lack of a better word) as the usual pro Middle East heel for his entire career. He comes to WRP and he's more of an "American Dream" type character. And instead of needing networks and dealing with all that middleman bullshit, the producer/owner/whatever of WRP, Jeff Katz, is looking to stream it over the internet first. He's looking and getting it all set up at places like Hulu and Netflix, places that already have that base audience that will give the show a shot. That's the kind of thinking the Pro Wrestling industry needs, because that's the kind of company that has a possibility of taking out the McMahon giant. Approaching wrestling in the traditional way either gets you killed or gets you Dixie Carter. I'm not sure which fate is worse.

Man, I love Daivari. So absolutely underrated, and indeed, I got to see him live when the Hassan vs. Undertaker angle was blown off at Great American Bash 2005. It kinda sucls because Daivari was just a mouthpiece (and not really necessary, since Hassan could talk pretty well) but I always thought he was underused. It was good to see him get some limelight in the years since. And indeed, as I said above, radical thinking is probably what will eventually topple something like McMahon built. What's really needed is a way to go back to these storylines and see them, piece-by-piece - so if a feud takes a year to go from flaring up to blowoff, you can see it at any point, any time if you've got your subscription or whatever, with new parts of the feud coming in every so often.

However, I don't know if it can truly replace "traditional" wrestling. Even if this thing becomes big, soon, it's not going to make WWE go away any time soon, and WWE does resemble a very, very large part of wrestling history. Plus, that's something that totally can't replicate the wrestling experience - the live crowds, the magic and aura of it all. But much as it was inconceivable for us to consider a world without WCW, until it happened, so will be the WWE. But eventually, there will be something that brings down all empires; there has to be.

It may not be until Vince McMahon dies, but something will happen... just a matter of when.

Something I want to bring to your attention to that rather long post is this: Your main selling point to "Turn him right the fuck now" is Austin. KOTR 96 happened in June. The WWF didn't turn Steve Austin until March of 1997. Daniel Bryan started getting these reactions a month ago, and they have clearly taken notice. It will probably take less time for DB to turn than it did Steve Austin, and honestly if they go the rest of the year with him as a heel I'll eat a pair of blue jeans.

Now, another point you bring up is what will come to compete and I'd like to stop you right there. That line of thinking is purely destructive for any company worth its salt. You never try competing with the top dog until the fans are demanding it. Even then you don't try to compete that much, because it's not worth it. If you present your product better and if you continue to make sound decisions your business will grow, and eventually you will overcome any obstacle in your way. It's how the WWF rose to the top, it's how New Japan Pro Wrestling rose to the top, and it's how any successful business rises to the top.

The best example I can give of trying to compete with the top dog and failing is with Sega. For a while it had a tagline of "Sega does what Nintendon't". It was brilliant marketing and Sega should have held every advantage. But because it was too busy trying to compete with Nintendo instead of strengthening the Genesis, they couldn't keep up. And along comes Sony, who only entered the fray because Nintendo wouldn't hold up its side of the bargain, and they start dominating the juggernaut. Why? Because they did what they wanted to do. Because they presented a solid product, gave it good support, and never tried to overcome the top dog, just become bigger than him. And that's how any wrestling business should look at the current scene.

Not too long ago the Wrestling Retribution Product began. It has attempted to take wrestling to a whole different place, and I think when it finally emerges it will be successful. Gone is the usual format that WWE, TNA, and hell even ROH uses. Gone are the bright lights and live television. WRP sets everything up like an actual TV show, but with wrestling. There are main characters, overarching storylines, cliffhangers, seasons, all that good stuff. So already it presents a different product from the get go, but it also takes a few other things and turns them on their heads.

For example, Shawn Daivari has been typecasted(for lack of a better word) as the usual pro Middle East heel for his entire career. He comes to WRP and he's more of an "American Dream" type character. And instead of needing networks and dealing with all that middleman bullshit, the producer/owner/whatever of WRP, Jeff Katz, is looking to stream it over the internet first. He's looking and getting it all set up at places like Hulu and Netflix, places that already have that base audience that will give the show a shot. That's the kind of thinking the Pro Wrestling industry needs, because that's the kind of company that has a possibility of taking out the McMahon giant. Approaching wrestling in the traditional way either gets you killed or gets you Dixie Carter. I'm not sure which fate is worse.

And so WWE continues its downward spiral. Why am I not surprised?

The problem is, it doesn't matter how much WWE, to use a phrase by Jim Cornette that I also like, "sucks a dick," because there's no competition. TNA is hardly competition. Ring of Honor is hardly competition. The biggest "competition" WWE has is stuff like UFC or Bellator, and those are actual fighting, not wrestling. Therefore, WWE sees no reason to improve its product, because let's face it - where else are people gonna go? TNA, where up till last year you could watch Kevin Nash tear his quads again and again, basically on command?

Squash matches like that, though... wow. Even the jobbers in the late 80s-early 90s got 2-3 minutes of getting their asses kicked. The only similarly disastrous events I can think of is when Kevin Nash (as Diesel) powerbombed Bob Backlund and won the WWF title in 1994 in 8 seconds flat, or the infamous "Fingerpoke of Doom" between Nash and Hogan in WCW. (The fact that Nash was involved in both of these are coincidences... I hope.) That does suck, because Sheamus is actually a pretty good worker, is pretty over, and the fact they're giving titles to the guy at such a young age shows they're planning big stuff for him - and around him.

Mind you, I'm no professional wrestling booker (Though, admittedly, I wouldn't mind being involved in the business in some way), but when a guy is hot, when a guy is getting cheered even if you've booked him as a heel, Rule #1 is that you fucking turn him and use him. He's going to make you money, and that's the goal of the wrestling biz - to make money and keep them coming back so you make more money. This is exactly what happened to Steve Austin - was a heel (and a mid-card heel, at that, as the "Ringmaster" gimmick), then at KOTR '96 (this was right after he became "Stone Cold" - he's using the nickname, but still using his old "Ringmaster" music) we get the birth of "Austin 3:16" and "And that's the bottom line" in one single promo - and people begin cheering him. Just listen to the pop he gets when Austin 3:16 comes out for the first time - and keep in mind, this man is a mid-card heel, who shouldn't be getting ANY pops at all:



To any booker worth his salt, this should've rang fucking alarm bells. "This mid-card heel got that big of a pop? Let's try something and see how it goes."

So what does the WWF do, after whoever their bookers are at the time notice the reaction? A double-turn - at Wrestlemania 13, they have Bret Hart turn heel, and Stone Cold turns face, in the same match by having Bret not let go of a sharpshooter, and Austin "pass out" from blood loss. What followed (helped along by the Montreal Screwjob half a year later) was the "Attitude Era", which ran concurrent with the nWo Era in WCW, and produced really the hottest 3 years in wrestling since the Hulkamania glory years of 1983-1989.

And then WCW was ruled by the inept writers of Russo/Ferrara and basically was killed by those two men. ECW, while innovative and over (massively over!) with its fanbase, tried to go national and simply could not compete with the WWF; they ran out of money. And ever since then, wrestling has been in the shitter. Think of how much better the Invasion could have been if they'd done it right.

The problem is, trying to compete with Vince McMahon is, in some ways, suicide. He's got much of the talent wrapped up, he's certainly got the bankroll, and really, the only way you're going to outdo him is the slow, long way - you're going to nip at his heels until you can bite them, expand slowly, and then you can challenge him. But realistically, probably until that man dies, he's going to keep the WWF on top and all comers crushed - because he can afford to take riskier moves and play the legal games, too.

But it's just a matter of time until something better comes along. Always has been that way, and it always will be. With wrestling, as always, it's a question of if - not when, and I think the South is probably going to be where it comes from again, in the old WCW stomping grounds, or perhaps Philadelphia, where ECW was, will become the new hotbed to challenge Connecticut once more.

And, to give one more piece of food for thought, think of how different things might have been if the "Curtain Call" at MSG hadn't happened, as Triple H was originally going to win KOTR '96. We might be talking about how sad it was to see the WWF go out of business.

Anyway, this is something I could go on and on and on about, but at this point, this comment is risking winding up being longer than the main entry, so I'll stop for now. If you really want me to keep rambling on, though, feel free to ask and ye shall receive.

That's actually a pretty common practice. And really they just plain don't give a shit. It can backfire though. In 2010 Total Nonstop Action Wrestling(TNA) made major changes to their product and their regulars at Universal Studios in Orlando were getting pissed and not "reacting in the right way". They eventually had someone come out and tell them they were cast members and needed to act in a certain way. That didn't turn out very well. Those fans are almost all gone, and now many of the people in that audience are really cheap actors they pay to be there. Friggin plants.

Video of the incident:

Man, I never expected them to go as far as editing the crowd. How do they explain that to the people that were actually there? I mean, in this age of the internet and those people having the ability to clearly call them out even if someone watching didn't catch it, it just seems really stupid or perhaps arrogant that they think they can just completely get away with it.

Both sides of the screwjob agree that it was a shoot, even though it paints every single one of them in a bad light. I'm inclined to believe them on that. If Bret Hart is saying something bad about Bret Hart, it's pretty much true. The man has an ego that's only rivaled by his 80's contemporaries.

To this day, some argue if the infamous Montreal Screwjob was a shoot or a worked shoot. I've seen validity to both sides. That said, I'm pretty firmly convinced it was a shoot.

On the other hand, it's what solidly propelled the WWF into its second golden age - the "Attitude Era" - and it changed the face of wrestling as we knew it.

But I'll probably always wonder whether it was real, or really the most successful trolling of the audience in the history of wrestling. Only a few men know for sure.

Glad to hear it! Though, I am reading it from the perspectiv of someone who knows very little about this variety of "pro" wrestling other than that it's all about showmanship.

The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin days where the last time I really paid any attention to it, and that was only because I had friends who liked it.

If I find time I'll probably start doing more of these. This one just popped out at me, but I really enjoy analyzing wrestling. Unfortunately there are plenty of people that are better at it than I am, and analyzing matches is much easier than analyzing songs or coincidences, but that would require people to actually watch the matches.

Hey, that's cool. Always surprised to see the different types on this board, since I don't hang around that often.

We actually have a few. The Pro Wrestling thread wasn't started by me, surprisingly. I just happen to be the only one who regularly posts in it.

Still can't believe we have a bona-fide WWE fan here on BL.

Not my cup of tea... but I loved reading this.

Originally Posted by Sei

I can watch Japanese wrestling. They tend to move like ninjas. But I don't think I've heard of this guy.

If you've seen any Japanese wrestling, you've probably seen something like Dragon Gate where they move insanely fast 24/7 or DDT where everything is for t3h lulz. NJPW is the second biggest wrestling promotion in the world, and the biggest in Japan, but they move much slower and are much stiffer(Stiff meaning they actually hit each other instead of pulling their strikes) Though, that being said, Okada is still a fairly new player to the game.

I can watch Japanese wrestling. They tend to move like ninjas. But I don't think I've heard of this guy.