Beam's Blog of Writing and Other Things.

Haven't gone through most of that, but I think I can understand at least some of those emotions (I don't assume to feel the same thing as anyone else, since I know I suck at reading emotions of other people).
I don't want to use the word "sorry", since it isn't pity that I feel...empathy maybe? Either way, Beam, I know I'm not the most stable person, but I do want you to know that I care...though I probably come off a bit on-edge at times. ^^;

To be honest, I've never really been able to understand suicide, and I pray I never have to. To me, the act of taking your own life - unless you're in very obvious, agonizing pain with terminal conditions - is nothing short of selfish and self-serving.

Why? The reason you stated - you realized it solves nothing. It just means that others have to take the pain in your stead.

Life isn't fair. It's certainly not sunshine and rainbows, and happiness comes in small doses. To quote Denis Leary: "Happiness comes in small doses, a cigarette, a cookie, a five second orgasm." We put up with a lot of shit, and what we really need is enough good to endure the bad.

I've had a few friends kill themselves. One of them was the happiest he'd been right beforehand. I even mailed him my old computer after I bought a new one, only to find out from his brother a week later that he hung himself. It depressed me so badly that for two weeks I couldn't touch my favorite game at the time because it made me think of him.

It's a dichotomy to me. On one hand, someone who is talking about suicide (as you were) tend to not want to actually commit it. They want to basically get help for it, but perhaps not from the "usual" sources. As I've learned as a social worker, talking about it, or "less likely" lethal methods (such as mild pill overdose) are really cries for help, rather than actual attempts at suicide. But the ones who really want to kill themselves will find a way to do it with virtually zero warning.

That's what's scariest... because oftentimes, their family and friends get little or no explanation or warning - and all of the grief. Thus, you and your friend talking about it to the other indicated that, on some level, neither of you really wanted to go through with it - probably because at some level, you knew the impact it would cause on your loved ones, and eventually it rose to your conscious thoughts and dissuaded you from going through with it.

I'm glad you're doing better now, and I hope you can stay on that track. Does life suck and is it unfair? Hell yeah it does and hell yeah it is. We all know that. But there's almost always going to be a better answer than "I need to kill myself." Killing yourself just spreads the pain to others; it only cures it for you - thus, it's selfish, and one of the greater sins a person can commit, regardless of if you're religious (as you indicate you are) or more spiritual (as I am).

Originally Posted by Dark Pulse

To be honest, I've never really been able to understand suicide, and I pray I never have to. To me, the act of taking your own life - unless you're in very obvious, agonizing pain with terminal conditions - is nothing short of selfish and self-serving.

Why? The reason you stated - you realized it solves nothing. It just means that others have to take the pain in your stead.

[...]

I'm glad you're doing better now, and I hope you can stay on that track. Does life suck and is it unfair? Hell yeah it does and hell yeah it is. We all know that. But there's almost always going to be a better answer than "I need to kill myself." Killing yourself just spreads the pain to others; it only cures it for you - thus, it's selfish, and one of the greater sins a person can commit, regardless of if you're religious (as you indicate you are) or more spiritual (as I am).

Do you know what, this line of thinking made me half-seriously omnicidal. I was raised Catholic, and it was drilled in my head that suicide is bad because it is selfish and it gives the pain to other people instead. So, in order for the pain not to be passed into the other people, why not kill literally everyone instead before suicide? By that solution, you could peacefully take your own life without leaving the problem to other people.

But then again, that isn't a viable answer because some people love their lives, there are always better and worse days in life, it has an undiscovered purpose (or maybe not), and we don't have the technology to execute the plan painlessly.

So yeah, the old cliche goes. Life isn't sunshine and rainbows, but as well as isn't all grimdark and film noir. Life isn't good or bad, it's colorful, as goes the lyrics of the song Tunak Tunak Tun, translated into English. And despite Isaac Asimov saying life is pleasant, death is peaceful and it's the transition that's troublesome, we really have no bloody clue if there is something or nothing after death. If there is something, we must prepare ourselves and do good. If there is nothing, let us do good things and go to the long sleep without any worries or regrets, if not less.

Until someone or something kills all of humanity, that is.

Originally Posted by Dark Pulse

To be honest, I've never really been able to understand suicide, and I pray I never have to. To me, the act of taking your own life - unless you're in very obvious, agonizing pain with terminal conditions - is nothing short of selfish and self-serving.

Why? The reason you stated - you realized it solves nothing. It just means that others have to take the pain in your stead.

Life isn't fair. It's certainly not sunshine and rainbows, and happiness comes in small doses. To quote Denis Leary: "Happiness comes in small doses, a cigarette, a cookie, a five second orgasm." We put up with a lot of shit, and what we really need is enough good to endure the bad.

I've had a few friends kill themselves. One of them was the happiest he'd been right beforehand. I even mailed him my old computer after I bought a new one, only to find out from his brother a week later that he hung himself. It depressed me so badly that for two weeks I couldn't touch my favorite game at the time because it made me think of him.

It's a dichotomy to me. On one hand, someone who is talking about suicide (as you were) tend to not want to actually commit it. They want to basically get help for it, but perhaps not from the "usual" sources. As I've learned as a social worker, talking about it, or "less likely" lethal methods (such as mild pill overdose) are really cries for help, rather than actual attempts at suicide. But the ones who really want to kill themselves will find a way to do it with virtually zero warning.

That's what's scariest... because oftentimes, their family and friends get little or no explanation or warning - and all of the grief. Thus, you and your friend talking about it to the other indicated that, on some level, neither of you really wanted to go through with it - probably because at some level, you knew the impact it would cause on your loved ones, and eventually it rose to your conscious thoughts and dissuaded you from going through with it.

I'm glad you're doing better now, and I hope you can stay on that track. Does life suck and is it unfair? Hell yeah it does and hell yeah it is. We all know that. But there's almost always going to be a better answer than "I need to kill myself." Killing yourself just spreads the pain to others; it only cures it for you - thus, it's selfish, and one of the greater sins a person can commit, regardless of if you're religious (as you indicate you are) or more spiritual (as I am).

Yes, let's guilt-trip suicidal people for being suicidal! That is an awesome idea!

Originally Posted by Kotonoha

Yes, let's guilt-trip suicidal people for being suicidal! That is an awesome idea!

Yeah! So that they will all grow to get angry at us, hate us and wish us death, by calling them selfish and irrational even though we have no bloody clue what they actually feel! That will make us feel much more better and show to the world that we are mature!

Koto says what I was thinking on that one, yeah.

Anyway... ow. Just. Ow.

Originally Posted by Kotonoha

Yes, let's guilt-trip suicidal people for being suicidal! That is an awesome idea!

I'll defeat that argument by stating one thing: You'll note I said "to me." That means it's simply what I think of it. A suicidal person may not think that way, after all.

There are different reasons for committing it, though, some more selfish than others. Killing yourself because of stuff that people did for you (Like Radiantbeam put in her blog earlier, or say, our own Jamey Rodemeyer) are definitely causes that are more "I can't endure the pain" than being selfish. But stuff like wiping out your whole family to spare them the pain? That don't work. You'd have to kill your entire family and friends - and then you're little but a mass murderer.

I still wonder, with both curious interest and fear, just what could drive a person to think those thoughts, to seriously entertain the idea of ending your own existence. I mean, life sucks, but for someone to contemplate that, there must be some seriously nasty voodoo going on in their lives.

I'll defeat that argument by stating one thing: You'll note I said "to me." That means it's simply what I think of it. A suicidal person may not think that way, after all.

Sorry, you can't hide behind "it's my opinion". You're still calling suicidal people selfish.

Originally Posted by Kotonoha

Sorry, you can't hide behind "it's my opinion". You're still calling suicidal people selfish.

Which, in at least some cases, I think it is.

Is something wrong with that?

There is a lot of it where it is someone who is in pain, and they can't endure it anymore. It's tragic, it's sad... but it's still selfish. They may not be thinking selfish thoughts while contemplating it, but it's still in some ways selfish, because the only way that they feel can ease their suffering ends their existence, and no matter how many apologies are on a suicide note (if one is written), that just makes the people named usually feel worse. There's little to no closure with a suicide, but an awful lot of "why" and "how."

The very definition of selfishness is when you put your own needs, wants, emotions, etc. over others. The simple fact is, in a lot of cases, regardless of how tragic the death is, they put their own desire to end the pain, immediately, over the pain they would inflict on their friends and family. Thus, selfish. Maybe it's not a popular viewpoint, and I sure as hell don't think every single suicide is selfish, but I'm not going to sugarcoat my view, nor am I going to brazenly say "All suicide is dumb." Because sometimes, it is really damn tragic. At the same time... it's also selfish. Whether or not it's tragic is totally separate. That's my opinion, and I'll stick to it. It doesn't mean I'm going to go calling suicidal people a pussy for contemplating it - I'd just hope I could help them in some way, and convince them that no matter how bad life's current turn may be screwing them over, it's still worth living.

Then again, I've never really been highly depressed in my life. I've helped a few people out of depression, though, and that makes me feel I'm at least doing something for humanity. That's me being a misanthrope who likes to help people for you. Ye gods, I must be insane.

Originally Posted by Dark Pulse

The very definition of selfishness is when you put your own needs, wants, emotions, etc. over others.

Comrade, what is the first thing that they tell you at economics? If you know the answer, I'm pretty sure you would choose death over living.

Originally Posted by Ivan The Mouse

Comrade, what is the first thing that they tell you at economics? If you know the answer, I'm pretty sure you would choose death over living.

Death and taxes? So are you saying we should abort every kid we have?

Originally Posted by Dark Pulse

Death and taxes? So are you saying we should abort every kid we have?

Nope. The first thing they tell you at an Economics class is "Humanity can never be satisfied. They have unlimited wants from limited resources."

Because, admit it, the old cliche goes, necessity is the mother of invention, and things are being invented, innovated, upgraded and obsoleted at a rapid pace these times. New computer hardware, new phones, new ideologies and new institutions every year. That's enough to prove that no one's ever satisfied with the stuff and shit they have, so they will forage for newer things and greener pastures.

So when do we stop wanting and needing things? Death, of course. Funerals don't count, because they are practiced because of religious, hygienic, social and cultural reasons. Any person back in the days of sticks and stones can just die in the middle of a forest and be left there to rot anyway.

So no, I'm not saying that we should abort every kid we have. It's much more than that. My point is, you can't call someone who takes his or her life as selfish on the spot, comrade.

Why?

Because first of all, humanity seem to have selfishness written on it's instincts. It's a survival and competition out there, man, even in this postmodern times. And even people who are altruistic have selfish reasons for being altruistic, may it be to survive or to satisfy the pride, ego or emotion he or she has. So, it's not bad to have selfishness in you, you're human anyway. Selfishness only becomes a problem when one guy stomps on the toes or skulls of his fellow guys and of course, because these fellow guys also want something for themselves for whatever reason, will gang up on that one guy and wipe him of for good. In short, if society deems you selfish, you're being too strong for them to handle. And they must pull you down and wipe you out for themselves to survive.

Second, there are many reasons for committing suicide, man. For example, some person who shields another person from incoming harm can be considered suicide. Heroic and selfless externally, yes, but he also has selfish reasons for doing that, and that is to satisfy his emotion or feeling of moral superiority at the cost of his life, even for a short time. Or people who think life is pointless or evil, so they are true to their principles and there, they end up the evil, just to satisfy their intellectualism. Many reasons, man, for committing suicide.

So there, to make the long story short, if you think committing suicide is selfish, try struggling to live the life you want. It's also selfish to go on living, man...and there's nothing wrong with that.

Originally Posted by Ivan The Mouse

Because first of all, humanity seem to have selfishness written on it's instincts. It's a survival and competition out there, man, even in this postmodern times. And even people who are altruistic have selfish reasons for being altruistic, may it be to survive or to satisfy the pride, ego or emotion he or she has. So, it's not bad to have selfishness in you, you're human anyway. Selfishness only becomes a problem when one guy stomps on the toes or skulls of his fellow guys and of course, because these fellow guys also want something for themselves for whatever reason, will gang up on that one guy and wipe him of for good. In short, if society deems you selfish, you're being too strong for them to handle. And they must pull you down and wipe you out for themselves to survive.

Just because "it's built into us" doesn't mean we should disregard it. Instinct demands men to try to bed every single woman they ever see. Do we? Of course not, because our society won't stand for it.

Also, while you're indeed correct in that definition for selfish, one is, again, "caring only for oneself." In this case, the person who kills themselves may think of their family, friends, and so on, but in the end, they still decide ending their pain overrules all of the pain and misery they will put those people through. Thus, selfish act. To me, there are very few cases where suicide is justified - mostly if you're in incredible pain, terminal disease, etc. - but we've had people kill themselves because their parents said they couldn't play their Wii right at that moment. How is that NOT selfish? That's terrible and tragic, because here was a perfectly good young life, who went and did something really dumb for a really dumb reason.

Originally Posted by Ivan The Mouse

Second, there are many reasons for committing suicide, man. For example, some person who shields another person from incoming harm can be considered suicide.

su·i·cide [soo-uh-sahyd] noun, verb, -cid·ed, -cid·ing.

noun
1. the intentional taking of one's own life.
2. destruction of one's own interests or prospects: Buying that house was financial suicide.
3. a person who intentionally takes his or her own life.

Shielding someone from a bullet ain't suicide. Sorry. A soldier who jumps on a grenade may know he's going to get killed, but unless it was his own grenade, and he threw it, it's not suicide.

Originally Posted by Ivan The Mouse

So there, to make the long story short, if you think committing suicide is selfish, try struggling to live the life you want. It's also selfish to go on living, man...and there's nothing wrong with that.

I fully agree that living is inherently selfish. After all, we're killing other things to prolong our own lives. But now you're trying to divert the topic.

Originally Posted by Dark Pulse

Just because "it's built into us" doesn't mean we should disregard it. Instinct demands men to try to bed every single woman they ever see. Do we? Of course not, because our society won't stand for it.

That's it. Our society wouldn't stand it. But so did a woman voting a few centuries back then. As I said, funerals are done for human reasons, when someone could just rot in a forest after he or she dies. Same thing does it for a polygamy. It doesn't happen because society hates it. Now, if a polygamy acceptance movement will start and achieve that acceptance goal, then the problem of societal acceptance becomes moot.

So yes, just with polygamy and women's rights, people might be fighting for their right to suicide and acceptance for it somewhere on the future. If we will have those telephone booth-like suicide booths or not, that's subject to individual speculation.

Originally Posted by Dark Pulse

Also, while you're indeed correct in that definition for selfish, one is, again, "caring only for oneself." In this case, the person who kills themselves may think of their family, friends, and so on, but in the end, they still decide ending their pain overrules all of the pain and misery they will put those people through. Thus, selfish act. To me, there are very few cases where suicide is justified - mostly if you're in incredible pain, terminal disease, etc. - but we've had people kill themselves because their parents said they couldn't play their Wii right at that moment. How is that NOT selfish? That's terrible and tragic, because here was a perfectly good young life, who went and did something really dumb for a really dumb reason.

You see, if you base all suicides from that kid who took his own life because he can't play wagglan', then I could use the surgery malpractice that doctor did to me as a justification for shunning modern medicine and going back to alternative ways, like homeopathy and psychic surgery. But I don't, so I still take my pharmaceuticals.

And besides, we don't know what that kid felt when he decided to suicide over video games. We have no idea on his back story. We can't say he had a perfect life, at least from his point of view. My brother was suicidal at one point in his high school life and he just told us the fact many years after. Take note, he was studying at a renowned high school, a special science school. And we aren't pressuring him, not my parents, not me, not his twin sister. Now, he's at one of the most prestigious universities in this country, studying Linguistics, majoring in Japanese and has high probabilities of being an exchange student in Japan. And he still whines about not getting what he wants and wanting more money sometimes.

We can't call him selfish outright just because he killed himself over a stupid thing. You can't expect logical reasons all the time. There is always something that more than what meets the eye, and we don't know it.

Originally Posted by Dark Pulse

su·i·cide [soo-uh-sahyd] noun, verb, -cid·ed, -cid·ing.

noun
1. the intentional taking of one's own life.
2. destruction of one's own interests or prospects: Buying that house was financial suicide.
3. a person who intentionally takes his or her own life.

Shielding someone from a bullet ain't suicide. Sorry. A soldier who jumps on a grenade may know he's going to get killed, but unless it was his own grenade, and he threw it, it's not suicide.

Yes, it is. Sure, he did not throw the grenade, but the fact that he could have just ran away from it, warn his fellows and find a safe place to cover themselves didn't occur to him because of panic, or impossible for him because he wasn't that much capable. (And take note, soldiers are usually fit enough, if not fitter than the average Joe or Jane.)

Hell, I could even say that saving people for the cost of your life is usually like gambling: We have all different reasons for doing it, and some of us might not be lucky or cunning enough to get back their bets. You might as well has have just gave up your bet directly to the casino and went home with nothing.

Originally Posted by Dark Pulse

I fully agree that living is inherently selfish. After all, we're killing other things to prolong our own lives. But now you're trying to divert the topic.

If you agree that living is inherently selfish, then why are you making it seem that suicide is bad because it is selfish? That's my point there.