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Hawkeye

Just a thought really.

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Well we were over in the history thread, and we were talking about a user named Mike, I never met him, but it seemed there was a certain dissonance of values between him and most others. Anyway, Rockxas posted this;

Quote Originally Posted by Rockxas View Post
...And then there's the absolute fanboyism, as seen in any instance of Rin and Shirou hypothetically having their own lives without finding out about Sakura's situation, or just pretty much anything regarding Tokiomi's decision to give Sakura to the Matous.
And it put into my head the question, just how separate are Shirou and Rin from Sakura, and how far could they go honestly justifying staying out of it?

Let's start with Tokiomi and the separation. Knowing of this event before Fate/Zero, I really, and I mean really wanted to hate Tokiomi for this, but when I actually read it, I honestly couldn't bring myself to. From his perspective, this was the best option for Sakura, she would have the chance to be the successor to another magus line, instead of being the forgotten second child of the Tohsaka. If you think about it as a normal person, it's horrendous, and he's a bastard, but when you consider how Magus society functions, being a child of a family, and not the heir, leaves you in a pretty crappy position and it's not like this is hearsay either, we've seen it, with Sola-Ui from Fate/Zero, being married off as if she had no other worth, and the Aozaki siblings are the picture of dysfunction, seemingly stemming back from their contest to be named their family's heir. So all in all, Tokiomi's decision, while appearing rather dickish to the outside observer, appears not only reasonable, but incredibly thoughtful, giving up his daughter so that she could have a better life than the one their society would dictate for her. It's just a shame it was the Matou she ended up with.

Net up, Rin. Sakura is her biological little sister. They were separated in their youth when Sakura was adopted by the Matou clan. Now I've not finished the VN yet, so I've no idea the depth of Rin's emotion in regard to this, I only know F/Z and the DEEN anime, but from what I can tell, while there is some regret, and still affection for her sister, Rin rationalises the situation as a magus, not as a sister. As such, Rin, having very much the values and upbringing of a magus, would most likely share the logical thought process behind this decision, and it's not like anyone truly knew what was going on with Sakura. Shirou didn't even know the full scope of it, and he spent practically every day with her, so Rin, who seemed to actively avoid her, wouldn't have any reason to suspect Sakura's situation was different from her own as the successor. So until Sakura's terrible circumstance was essentially thrust into her face, she had no reason to get involved with Sakura again, especially considering that she was esssentially the heir of a rival family what with the Grail war and all.

Finally, Shirou. I'm still not entirely sure why he sees Sakura hang around and cook for him, but doesn't get the idea that she likes him. I mean there's dense, then there's made of swords dense apparently, Unlimited Dumb Works is what I'm getting at here.

Anyway, that's besides the point here. In whatever chain of events lead to Sakura being a regular fixture at the Emiya house (I assume something to do with the Archery club, given Shirou, Shinji and Sakura's mutual membership at one time) She's spent many hours in Shirou's company, and he's had ample opportunity to realise something is up. On several occasions, he's remarked the presence of bruises on Sakura and has rightfully attributed this to Shinji. Despite this, he had failed to take any action on the matter because of Sakura's insistance, but I won't lie by saying that this sits right with me in any way. Shirou wasn't raised as a traditional magus. He doesn't have the mentality of "Leave them alone and hope they leave us alone" that magus seem to possess, as a matter of fact, he's the exact opposite, being an idealist who wants to be a hero, so the idea that he would allow this abuse to continue, does rather rub me the wrong way, not just from a moral standpoint, but it doesn't seem to make sense for the character, as while I know Shirou is not want to jump to violence, it's no secret that between him and Shinji, there really isn't a contest, and a firm warning about it doesn't seem like it would have gone amiss. Perhaps there's some subtlty of Japanese culture I'm missing here, where they might be more hesitant to take action on such things, but to me, having Shirou, someone who is always trying to balance the scales and such just ignore a problem on thee victim's insistance, seems rather out of place.

So all things considered, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that Tokiomi made his decision to give up Sakura and that Rin, a born and raised magus, would see the reason in this and carry on as expected, having no reason to pry into Sakura's circumstances at all. The only one in this situation who doesn't seem to act in according to what I would expect of their moral compass, is Shirou, which rather bugs me.

Comments

  1. Dullahan's Avatar
    In this case, I suspect it's a Japanese culture thing. Arashi might have talked about in his guide.
  2. forumghost's Avatar
    Pretty sure Shirou doesn't have any idea that she's into him because why would he, his life has no value. There's also the fact that he has only recently begun to even notice that she's female (according to what he said at the beginning of the story) and not just 'my bro Shinji's kid sister'.

    Incidentally, he has confronted Shinji over Sakura's injuries before, it's why they're not really friends at the start of F/SN- Shirou kicked the shit out of him for abusing her.
  3. Hawkeye's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost
    Pretty sure Shirou doesn't have any idea that she's into him because why would he, his life has no value. There's also the fact that he has only recently begun to even notice that she's female (according to what he said at the beginning of the story) and not just 'my bro Shinji's kid sister'.

    Incidentally, he has confronted Shinji over Sakura's injuries before, it's why they're not really friends at the start of F/SN- Shirou kicked the shit out of him for abusing her.
    Yeah, I remember reading that he'd only just began to notice Sakura, but surely that's just his interest in her, even an idiot would be able to figure out she has a crush on him, even if, because of his way of thinking, it only appeared as a sort of childish infatuation.

    As for Shinji, clearly not enough! Shinji needs enough of an ass whoopin' to turn him black and back again!

  4. Dullahan's Avatar
    And also that. IIRC Shirou did confront Shinji over the bruises at some point pre-FSN, but I can't remember if it's ever said whether or not it got violent.
  5. forumghost's Avatar
    He did, it's on day two:

    When I asked him why he hit her, he said that he just hit her because he felt like it.
    After that, I got pissed and did to Shinji what he did to Sakura.
    Since then, we've been estranged.
    I still don't regret punching him.
    But I think it's my fault that Sakura is being treated worse.
    It's such a Shinji moment. Apparently Shirou noticed she had these weird injuries, so he naturally went and asked her caring Onii-san about it.

    And he was like 'lol it was me, no reason, just felt like it."
    Updated April 22nd, 2015 at 08:44 AM by forumghost
  6. Dullahan's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by forumghost
    He did, it's on day two:
    Ah, that's right. I swear, Shirou beating up Shinji, whether depicted or implied, never fails to be hilarious. There's something innately amusing about it which you just don't get whenever it's someone else brutalising the poor wakame.
  7. forumghost's Avatar
    Shinji getting beat-up is always fun.

    I think that the moment that Sakura cemented herself in my mind as 'worst girl' was when she stopped Shirou from decking him in HF.
  8. Christemo's Avatar
    TL:DR Tokiomi is actually a good and well-meaning father who couldn't actually know what would happen to his daughter because Kariya was being an obstructive dicklord.
  9. mAc Chaos's Avatar
    Even if Kariya said anything Tokiomi would've ignored him. "lol this hobo is trying to ruin things for me now that he realizes he fucked up. i see you dog, i see you"
  10. Imperial's Avatar
    The conversation between Tokiomi and Kariya on the rooftop was so frustrating. He didn't make any real effort to articulate why Sakura was suffering. He just bleated on about how much Tokiomi sucks.

    Edit: Though mAc makes a good point. Even if Kariya had tried to explain what made his family so awful, Tokiomi probably would have written him off as a loser and torched him even faster for trying to give away magus secrets.
    Updated April 22nd, 2015 at 10:21 AM by Imperial
  11. forumghost's Avatar
    Kariya was always more interested in punishing Tokiomi for 'stealing' his waifu then he was helping Sakura. But as mAc said, 90% chance that Tokiomi wouldn't believe him if he told him the truth anyway.
  12. Megas's Avatar
    He probably could have actually told Aoi instead of just saying "imma kill your husband and save Sakura!"

    Just a thought
  13. forumghost's Avatar
    Aoi: "That may be so, but I am a useless piece of furniture that can only do what Tokiomi tells me to"

    Even if she believes him, she can't do anything about it, and Tokiomi won't do anything about it, so the point is moot.
  14. Hawkeye's Avatar
    Kariya was a character I really wanted to like. He was the one born and bred Matou who didn't seem like scum through and through, but he let his hatred and jealousy for Tokiomi override his reason. He could have saved Sakura from his family, but he got used by Zouken, by Kirei, he gave up his freedom to become their puppet, and he died like a dog. I pity him more than anything.

    Whether he could have convinced Tokiomi it was a mistake, I can't say, but he certainly failed epically. Props to him in one degree I guess, for being like the second shittiest master in the war, he still managed to place third.
    Updated April 22nd, 2015 at 12:52 PM by Hawkeye
  15. mAc Chaos's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by TheMegas
    He probably could have actually told Aoi instead of just saying "imma kill your husband and save Sakura!"

    Just a thought
    aoi: some worm guy told me ____
    tokiomi: oh so hes not even man enough to say it to my face and fite me irl, he has to creep on my wife now too huh
  16. You's Avatar
    Third is the second loser.
  17. Break's Avatar
    The problem was that Kariya thought Tokiomi knew about the wormraping from the beginning, so they were talking around each others
  18. Hawkeye's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by You
    Third is the second loser.
    Which even in that pessimistic light, is better than 6th, 5th, 4th and 3rd loser.

    Quote Originally Posted by Break
    The problem was that Kariya thought Tokiomi knew about the wormraping from the beginning, so they were talking around each others
    Which is odd, cause you'd really think after like 200 years of kicking the crap outta one another, the Tohsaka would know that...
  19. Gold5's Avatar
    s
    Updated May 3rd, 2015 at 08:04 PM by Gold5