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Hawkeye

Tohsaka and Edelfelt: The Eternal Rivalry

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This topic came up in the Questions thread, so I figured I'd put forward my view on it. I'm sure this is already something commonly known/considered around here, so if you're already familiar with the relationship between the Tohsaka and Edelfelt families, feel free to skip over this. If not, here goes nothing.

Right, starting off, people following current Type-Moon works are likely familiar with Rin Tohsaka and Luvia Edelfelt and their perpetual rivalry that involves a lot more pro-wrestling and physical bouts than one would probably expect of a Magus Fight.

But, the Tohsaka history with this family goes farther back, and is likely a lot closer than some Prisma fans would know at any rate.

During the Third Fuyuki Holy Grail War, one of the competitors were the Edelfelt family. In particular, two sisters whose Sorcery Trait, called Ores Scales according to the translation I have, allowed the two to share the Edelfelt magic crest, and also meant that when they summoned the Sabre of that war, they actually got two servants, each being a separate aspect of the hero they had intended to summon.

Now they apparently worked together for a time before splitting into two camps for whatever reason. Despite what we're told about the Sabre class' ability to consistantly make the finals of each war, it seems that the Edelfelt were eliminated quite early, so it's possible that one of them lost their servant to someone else or a similar outcome.

Anyway, this is where my data (As opposed to what I know to be the general knowledge of this pair) gets kinda hazy.

One Source says one went missing and the other died, or that one went missing and the other returned home with a grudge against the Japanese. I'm not sure what's correct here. Either way, the consistant part is that one went missing, and regardless of the other's fate, the Edelfelt line continued all the same with Luvia eventually becoming their heir.

As for the one that went missing. Basically there's two possiblities, both involve running across the Tohsaka. Either she was taken out and parts of her Magic Crest were somehow harvested by the Tohsaka (I've no idea how one would do that given the genetic coding required to be compatible with a Magic Crest.) The other, much more likely outcome, is that said sister married into the Tohsaka, her descendants then being able to adopt a singular crest from both the Tohsaka and Edelfelt.

The evidence for this is quite compelling all things considered.

First and foremost, Rin herself makes use of Gandr, a Scandinavian curse, which if not sharing heritage with the Finnish Edelfelt, a Japanese Magus would really have no logical reason to use, her other spellls and magecraft being inherited from her ancestor's teacher, Kischur Zelretch Schweinorg. Not only that, Rin's Gandr is notably potent, and the Edelfelt are considered some of the most prominant users of this move.

The second piece of evidence is that Rin's father, Tokiomi, is noted to have had a foreign mother. Tokiomi, who himself appears to be in his 30s at least at the start of the Fourth War, it's entirely possible that his mother was the missing Edelfelt sister from the Third War 60 years before.

Finally, while decidedly not as concrete as the other evidence, in Avenger's Time Loop, the ones playing the roles of the Edelfelt sisters are in fact Rin and Sakura. Giiven that other factors were recreated rather haphazardly (The Third War's Assassin and its master being duplicated without incident) this could simply be allocating the role to the only sisters to participate in the Fifth War, but it's also possible that their heritage played a part in giving them these personas.

Anyway, like I said before, this isn't anything new or ground breaking, but since people were asking, figured I'd put it out there for people to look over.

Comments

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  1. Strife ❤️'s Avatar
  2. You's Avatar
    First and foremost, Rin herself makes use of Gandr, a Scandinavian curse, which if not sharing heritage with the Finnish Edelfelt, a Japanese Magus would really have no logical reason to use, her other spellls and magecraft being inherited from her ancestor's teacher, Kischur Zelretch Schweinorg. Not only that, Rin's Gandr is notably potent, and the Edelfelt are considered some of the most prominant users of this move.
    . . .
    disregarding what's wrong with this.
    Do japanese puppets count.
  3. Hawkeye's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by You
    . . .
    disregarding what's wrong with this.
    Do japanese puppets count.
    Count for what? The use of puppets seem to be a fairly wide spread magecraft. Cornelius Alba, Touko Aozaki, Van-Fem, Faldeus and such, so it wouldn't be that unusual for more than one family or group to use them, especially given the variations one can achieve with it.

    Gandr on the other hand is one move for which the Edelfelt are particularly well known, but is just noted as a Scandinavian curse, not as having any particularly strong link to a particular methodology, so the idea that the Tohsaka inherited this ability through Zelretch's teaching seems unlikely and much more likely to have been inhherited from a family line who are notably experts with this move.
  4. You's Avatar
    Puppets who can use Gandr.

    What magecraft do you think Zelretch taught the Tohsaka. Because:
    Q: Zelretch's pupils seemed to have all been turned into wrecks, so Tohsaka Nagato must be a wreck as well?
    A: If the person is accepted as a "pupil of a Magician", he will be turned into a wreck, but if the person is accepted as a "pupil of a magus", then everything is fine. Nagato could not even be called a "pupil of a magus". From Zelretch's perspective, Nagato was but a follower whom he looked out for every now and then. ....They met during a journey, and Zelretch taught Nagato something as payment for the hotel bill. That is their level of relationship. It is sort of like a supervising teacher who is observing the students doing experiments from afar.
  5. Hawkeye's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by You
    Puppets who can use Gandr.

    What magecraft do you think Zelretch taught the Tohsaka. Because:
    Okay, there's a wrench in my works here, there are puppets who can use Gandr? Like literally referred to as Gandr? ... That's weird.

    And the magecraft Zelretch seems to have passed on was the Jewel Magecraft, since from what I know, the Tohsaka weren't a clan of magus before then. They probably had to work out most of it for themselves, but that just strengthens the idea for me that it's unlikely he'd of passed on Gandr to them, instead of just going "Here's a vague idea of a system of magecraft you can use, now stop bothering me."
  6. You's Avatar
    Well you know the jewel magecraft is actually from the Eldefelt.
    Just because Zelretch is called the old man of the jewels doesn't mean he taught the Tohsaka Jewel magecraft.
  7. Hawkeye's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by You
    Well you know the jewel magecraft is actually from the Eldefelt.
    Just because Zelretch is called the old man of the jewels doesn't mean he taught the Tohsaka Jewel magecraft.
    Can I get the confirmation of that?

    Though it would seem very weird if Zelretch left them the blueprint to his Jewel Sword and no idea how to put it together. I mean what on earth did the Tohsaka do before then if basically all their signature moves are only 3 generations old?
  8. You's Avatar
    They have the same magecraft attribute Conversion.
    They both soak jewels in their blood to impart prana in them. This is something that's unique to the Eldefelt's as it's their special type of rune magecraft.
    The first line is from cm 3
    The second is from el melloi case files.

    Either way use of the jewel sword does not require jewel magecraft, since it's part of the second. Either way, the Tohsaka's jewel magecraft technically isn't even jewel magecraft so yeah.
  9. Hawkeye's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by You
    They have the same magecraft attribute Conversion.
    They both soak jewels in their blood to impart prana in them. This is something that's unique to the Eldefelt's as it's their special type of rune magecraft.
    The first line is from cm 3
    The second is from el melloi case files.

    Either way use of the jewel sword does not require jewel magecraft, since it's part of the second. Either way, the Tohsaka's jewel magecraft technically isn't even jewel magecraft so yeah.
    Huh, well what do ya know. Though it seems the confirmation of that idea came rather recently, as until case files, it was just the attribute they had in common.

    Still, all in all that just makes the relationship between the two family all but said out loud then, right?
  10. Rafflesiac's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Bridget
    i'm lighting the chris-signal

    i believe
    And on that day, Chrisman was 12 days too late.

    r i p
  11. Hawkeye's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Bridget
    i'm lighting the chris-signal

    i believe
    Quote Originally Posted by Rafflesiac
    And on that day, Chrisman was 12 days too late.

    r i p
    Not that I'd see it anyway, but the less Christemo here to bug the crap out of me, the better. I've said it before, I'm fine with being wrong, more info, the better, what I don't need is that.... Person, giving off.
  12. You's Avatar
    Christemo should use this ban time editing the TM wikia and complaining there.
  13. Hawkeye's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by You
    Christemo should use this ban time editing the TM wikia and complaining there.
    Is he banned? That would explain why I've not seen him of late.

    Though if I thought for an instant he could actually spend time doing something constructive, I'd accept the complaining and welcome him with open arms to the Wikia.
  14. Megas's Avatar
    I still don't understand why you make these mega posts here rather than just ask some questions over in the questions thread.
  15. ZidanReign's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    I still don't understand why you make these mega posts here rather than just ask some questions over in the questions thread.
    This.

    Everytime I see a Hawkeye blog post I want to block him even more-

    Actually...
  16. Hawkeye's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    I still don't understand why you make these mega posts here rather than just ask some questions over in the questions thread.
    Half the time I don't even know there's a question to ask. As I believe we've firmly established, my comprehensive knowledge appears to be level with Jon Snow.

    Besides, the questions thread gets pulled off into tangents so much, I actually think being wrong in a blog post attracts an answer much faster at this point. XD
  17. Hawkeye's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by ZidanReign
    This.

    Everytime I see a Hawkeye blog post I want to block him even more-

    Actually...
    ... Who are you? I seriously don't think I've talked to you even once the whole time I've been here.
  18. mAc Chaos's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by ZidanReign
    This.

    Everytime I see a Hawkeye blog post I want to block him even more-

    Actually...
  19. Seika's Avatar
    Zidan, mentioning your ignore list as a way to bludgeon someone is precisely the opposite of what it was meant for, which is to let you get along more smoothly on the boards. Stop it.

    Hawkeye, aside from it being unacceptable to dismiss a user as never being able to do anything constructive, doing it when they're banned and can't react to or report it is particularly out of line.

    Both of you consider this a formal private warning (delivered in public).
  20. Hawkeye's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Seika
    Zidan, mentioning your ignore list as a way to bludgeon someone is precisely the opposite of what it was meant for, which is to let you get along more smoothly on the boards. Stop it.

    Hawkeye, aside from it being unacceptable to dismiss a user as never being able to do anything constructive, doing it when they're banned and can't react to or report it is particularly out of line.

    Both of you consider this a formal private warning (delivered in public).
    Sorry, won't happen again.
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