Illya's #1 fangirl

"So yeah that's it. In short, I really liked all three routes but HF having Sakura in focus made it hard to get through at times. Illya being the main driving force for me to finish it."

Welcome to the general consensus. :3c

My understanding is that it was originally Ilya route and Sakura was tossed in for ero scenes.

I thought the Ilya route got combined with Sakura's route because Sakura's got too long?

It shows, unfortunately. It's like Shirou loves Ilya, but has sex with Sakura.

Fate is really the most romantic of the three routes. LE is good but eeeh I could do with or without it honestly.

-I actually came to like Rin after seeing her in focus, though her tsundere attitude got old at times.

Look, someone understands. =D

-Illya being killed was a cheap shot if I've ever seen one. I failed to see what that added to the plot except to make Gill look like a psychopath.

Exposing what Shirou's deal was exactly. We have our perception colored from Fate but in UBW there is literally no interaction between Shirou and Illya and he still tries to save her. At the cost of his life might I add. Also to avoid curb-stomping Archer, Caster & Souichirou.

As for HF, Sakura is a really hit or miss heroine. It's either she is the best, or she is the worst, almost no exceptions. And the fact that both Sakura's and Illya's routes were merged kind of hurt it. And yeah the whole "Pity Sakura she had a rough life" was as subtle as a bag of bricks to the Face.

The 'save ilya' decision tree made it very obvious that it was supposed to be Ilya's route.

No, it wasn't "supposed to be Ilya's route". It is true (and evident from the amount of character development and involvement that Ilya has) that Nasu did merge Ilya's route together with Sakura's to produce HF, but the result is quite clearly Sakura's route, and Shirou quite clearly loves her (he loves Ilya too, yes, but as a sister, not a lover).

As for your interpretation of Sakura, gothic, you seem to have trotted out all the standard reasons for hating her, which have absolutely no bearing on reality. Sakura did not willingly kill anyone (excepting Zouken, Kotomine and perhaps Shinji, all when Dark and at least two of which were self-defense), so I do not see how it can possibly make her "unlikeable". And, her "I hate you" speech to Rin came when she was quite clearly not sane and under the influence of Angra Mainyu, not to mention that Rin was being a total bitch to her throughout that scene and most of the rest of the route too. Further, I don't recall her "whining" over whether Shirou would accept her, I just recall her assuming that he wouldn't. Which is what tends to happen with girls who has been raped for eleven years and had their self-esteem deliberately crushed to prevent them fighting back. I don't see how you can possibly blame her for that.

It's just my opinion. That and I still think for all that happened in HF that Illya would make a better lover for Shirou then Sakura.

No, it wasn't "supposed to be Ilya's route". It is true (and evident from the amount of character development and involvement that Ilya has) that Nasu did merge Ilya's route together with Sakura's to produce HF, but the result is quite clearly Sakura's route, and Shirou quite clearly loves her (he loves Ilya too, yes, but as a sister, not a lover).

As for your interpretation of Sakura, gothic, you seem to have trotted out all the standard reasons for hating her, which have absolutely no bearing on reality. Sakura did not willingly kill anyone (excepting Zouken, Kotomine and perhaps Shinji, all when Dark and at least two of which were self-defense), so I do not see how it can possibly make her "unlikeable". And, her "I hate you" speech to Rin came when she was quite clearly not sane and under the influence of Angra Mainyu, not to mention that Rin was being a total bitch to her throughout that scene and most of the rest of the route too. Further, I don't recall her "whining" over whether Shirou would accept her, I just recall her assuming that he wouldn't. Which is what tends to happen with girls who has been raped for eleven years and had their self-esteem deliberately crushed to prevent them fighting back. I don't see how you can possibly blame her for that.

That's quite a laundry list of words that, summed up, is "you don't like Sakura, but that's not cool cuz 'I' like Sakura a TON". I'm starting up HF's route tonight so I'mma see for myself what Sakura is depicted like. Probably not exactly as bad as she's being cracked up as but WHATEVER everyone's all got different eyes. A game has been summarized. TIS ALL!

(Brought to you by the same country that allows one to reply to any argument with "well, you're a bitch".)

No, I've given good reasons why his arguments are just not valid, especially the one about Sakura killing people.

The rest I can just about understand, but I'm really sick of people blaming Sakura for something she had absolutely no control over. People just seem to want to entirely ignore what actually happened, and look for any excuse they can find to bash her.

Arguments are still valid even if they don't agree with yours. An argument is simply a stance on a particular issue, backed up by whatever the arguer feels is sufficient proof to point to their view. That's all.

Ironically enough, Monty Python's "Argument Clinic" sketch works wonders here:

Man	Oh, look this is futile.
Mr Vibrating	No it isn't.
Man	I came here for a good argument.
Mr Vibrating	No you didn't, you came here for an argument.
Man	Well, an argument's not the same as contradiction.
Mr Vibrating	It can be.
Man	No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements to establish a definite proposition.
Mr Vibrating	No it isn't.
Man	Yes it is. It isn't just contradiction.
Mr Vibrating	Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
Man	But it isn't just saying 'No it isn't'.
Mr Vibrating	Yes it is.
Man	No it isn't, Argument is an intellectual process ... contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
Mr Vibrating	No it isn't.
Man	Yes it is.

Therefore, Mike, you can't rule his argument "isn't valid." It may not agree with your view, but it's just as valid - and thus, correct - as your view is. BOTH are legitimate viewpoints (and arguments!) on this story, and even if you don't like them, you can't change that. Therefore, you're simply contradicting any viewpoint of Sakura that does not agree with your own.

You can argue which one is "right" until the cows come home (unless you live in Wales - in which case, replace that with sheep and watch out for Godword) but simply put, both are correct. The only incorrect thing is you assuming it's not valid, because it fully is.

I meant "isn't valid" as in "isn't logically valid". Which is an entirely reasonable statement to make. You may disagree with that statement, but it is something that is entirely reasonable to argue. His logic is quite simply faulty, because it is ludicrous to blame someone for something they have no control over.

Also, it is quite simply fallacious to say "all opinions are equal", as you (and many others) seem to think. If I make a claim which is contradicted by the available evidence, then it is entirely reasonable to call that claim "wrong", and saying "well, it's just an opinion" does not magically make it not wrong.

Bit of nitpicking for original blog post: HF has 'Normal' and 'True' ends, not a 'Good' end, so any reference to such is nonsensical.

Personal preference nitpicking:

1) Ilya's flashback and death sequence in UBW was probably one of my favorite parts of the game simply from how much I cried during it.

2) Would have preferred if Sakura and Ilya got completely seperate routes. Could have made F/SN a two-disc thing. Fate/UBW on one and (insert titles for Sakura/Ilya routes here).

Originally Posted by Mike1984

I meant "isn't valid" as in "isn't logically valid". Which is an entirely reasonable statement to make. You may disagree with that statement, but it is something that is entirely reasonable to argue. His logic is quite simply faulty, because it is ludicrous to blame someone for something they have no control over.

Also, it is quite simply fallacious to say "all opinions are equal", as you (and many others) seem to think. If I make a claim which is contradicted by the available evidence, then it is entirely reasonable to call that claim "wrong", and saying "well, it's just an opinion" does not magically make it not wrong.

The point is, that you can argue that something is wrong if you have a factual evidence, but this is a character interpretation. Even if she does have a clear character bias (and there is definitely one here) everyone does to a point. Thus, as her character interpretation is different from yours, so will be how she views other characters. Other things she might forgive from one she won't from another, and so on and so forth.

What you shouldn't do is to blatantly call her opinion itself wrong. Factual claims are fine to argue, like the one Aiden pointed out, when he called out how she called HF True HF "Good". All other claims, like how she viewed Sakura's personality are hers and her alone, like how you view Rin is yours. You can disagree with it and maybe point out why, but delving any deeper than that and just calling her wrong is pretty much asking for trouble, because that is her personal viewpoint. As this is not about critiquing her viewpoint, but only a personal review, such things aren't needed.

But character interpretations are not purely opinion. If someone came on and claimed that Shirou wants to kill people, then they would be wrong, and I would be entirely justified in pointing that out. Similarly, claiming that Sakura consciously chose to kill those people is just plain wrong.

I know you think that the world is entirely shades of grey, and that if someone believes that the sky is pink then it actually is pink for them, but that's not how reality works. Sure, some things genuinely do not have a "right answer" (for example, certain philosophical questions), but characterisation is not one of them. A genuinely "correct" characterisation for Sakura does exist, even if we don't know what it actually is. It is not simply a matter of opinion, where everyones belief is equal, because there are actual facts out there.

Of course, whether you actually like her or not is just personal opinion, and cannot directly be argued with. However, the logic behind that opinion can be argued with.

Originally Posted by Mike1984

I meant "isn't valid" as in "isn't logically valid". Which is an entirely reasonable statement to make. You may disagree with that statement, but it is something that is entirely reasonable to argue. His logic is quite simply faulty, because it is ludicrous to blame someone for something they have no control over.

It's fully logically valid, and it does depend on the circumstances. There's people in reality who are abused as kids, and then grow up as sociopaths and go out and kill people. Insane or not, they're still responsible for the crime - the question is really are they sane enough to have committed them willfully. If they are, it's the clink or perhaps the chair; if not, it's off to Happy Acres.

Originally Posted by Mike1984

Also, it is quite simply fallacious to say "all opinions are equal", as you (and many others) seem to think. If I make a claim which is contradicted by the available evidence, then it is entirely reasonable to call that claim "wrong", and saying "well, it's just an opinion" does not magically make it not wrong.

Except that, again, this claim isn't wrong. You can say she wasn't in her right mind, under the manipulation of Angra Mainyu, whatever, but the simple fact is, she is committing the murders still. They could not have happened without her. If I end up killing someone, and I don't remember a damn thing, but there's proof that I did it, it doesn't make me any less guilty of committing the murders - the question then becomes if I did so willingly.

Sakura did not do these things willingly, but she still committed them. Nothing can change that.

Furthermore, as Altima pointed out, the rest of it is pretty much opinion on why gothic didn't like it: A whole bunch of seemingly thrown-in sex, she felt she complained so much to the point that it got on her nerves, etc. You're taking one part of her reasons why, and using that to turn the whole thing false. Things don't work that way, and even you pointed that out. It also completely skirts the fact Shirou ended up ambivalent to it, which you also ignored.

Finally, last I checked, Shirou wound up being quite fine with certain people being offed. It's only in the Fate route where he's "Save everyone" - after all, in the HF route, he pretty much gives the finger to everyone but Sakura, damning them to whatever fates they have. He may not outright want their deaths, but he sure as hell isn't affected as much by any that will happen. That's why deciding which Shirou is the right one is almost impossible, since he can be anything from naive to a very cold person, and it's probably why people tend to pick a moderate Shirou that's more or less on the UBW line of things.

"Shirou wants to kill people" is factually wrong 'cause there's canon backing that it isnt's the case.
"Shirou's subconciously wishing to cause harm" based on interpreting his "wish to save people" the same way Kotomine did is a valid if disagreeable opinion based on correct facts.

Practice spotting the difference.

Nitpick there, DP, but the "Sakura did not do these things willingly" is pretty open to interpretation, just like the possession stuff.

At least I think she basically stopped caring on whether she killed people or not, but well, just my opinion.

Well, even a soldier, subconsciously or not, adapts to death. A solider who sees a dead child in the street will mourn, but by the thousandth, it's just another corpse.

To me, it's amazing how the mind can be twisted in that way.

Originally Posted by RacingeR

Nitpick there, DP, but the "Sakura did not do these things willingly" is pretty open to interpretation, just like the possession stuff.

At least I think she basically stopped caring on whether she killed people or not, but well, just my opinion.

You could interpret it all you wanted, but the facts already show that it is a clear case of possession. Otherwise the "awakening" part where Gilgamesh flayed her wouldn't have as much impact. And then the talk she had the next night with Ilya about the Grail went into further detail about it. It was also the reason she spiraled downward after Shinji died. Ilya even pointed out the contradiction in her mind during the scene in the backyard. If she didn't really care about killing people, Fuyuki would have been emptied.

Most of the people who I do talk to don't really seem to have paid attention to much of the scenes in HF, which accurately state what went on and why things happened as they were.

I'd understand if it were things like, "I dislike this person based on this and this personality trait" which, even if I disagreed with, would be open to their interpretation, but people really just seem to ignore quite a lot of things based on character bias. It makes for rather poor discussion.

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

You could interpret it all you wanted, but the facts already show that it is a clear case of possession. Otherwise the "awakening" part where Gilgamesh flayed her wouldn't have as much impact. And then the talk she had the next night with Ilya about the Grail went into further detail about it. It was also the reason she spiraled downward after Shinji died. Ilya even pointed out the contradiction in her mind during the scene in the backyard. If she didn't really care about killing people, Fuyuki would have been emptied.

Most of the people who I do talk to don't really seem to have paid attention to much of the scenes in HF, which accurately state what went on and why things happened as they were.

I'd understand if it were things like, "I dislike this person based on this and this personality trait" which, even if I disagreed with, would be open to their interpretation, but people really just seem to ignore quite a lot of things based on character bias. It makes for rather poor discussion.

Sorry if my interpretation is based on the narration basically telling us straight that Dark Sakura is Sakura, all right, and that the whole "AM is forcing me" is a mask, or however the exact wording went.

You talk about ignoring scenes, but you also seem pretty keen on ignoring that scene.

("You are not another personality. You were swallowed by the mud and have become addicted to violence, but you are still Matou Sakura. You don't need to prepare another personality to excuse yourself."
Her face stiffens.
He's absolutely right.
The girl grits her teeth and glares back at the priest.)

Well, anyways, it is a matter of opinion, and mine is stated. If you are gonna be that dismissive from the get-go, then I see no worth in discussing with you. But I gotta say, this all was pretty hypocritical from you.

Bye.

Well, ignoring the fact that you're entirely misinterpreting that scene, both to apply to Sakura before she turned Dark and also to assume that it means that AM has no effect on her when that is quite patently not the case, who exactly did Sakura kill in her Dark form? I count a grand total of three people, two of whom were clearly killed in self-defence and the other one was an enemy.