Tobias

Your morals are wrong and I've finished talking to you.

Kidding, kidding.

I actually do agree with a rather large amount of this. Rin kind of knows "the gist" of it but not really the spirit of it, as it were. She's forced to divide her life into two aspects - a very public life where Rin is the ideal student, the ideal athlete, the school idol, the one that men want, and girls envy (and even some of them want, too - right, Yukika?) And then there's the Rin who knows that even if she can enjoy that fleeting bit of normalcy, they'll never get to know her, because knowing the REAL Tohsaka Rin is dangerous - even deadly. Thus, she is forced to shunt herself away from them, to keep them at an arm's length, to let them look, and even tease - but to never actually act on it.

Needless to say, it's bound to have effects on her.

Even a magus can't escape basic human needs, and Rin is still human. Rin still needs to eat. Rin still needs to sleep. Rin poops and pees like the rest of them, and like all females, I'm sure she has periods too. Sex is an instinctive need for us all - after all, in genetic terms, we're here basically just to keep propagating our species, and once we are no longer "fit" for that, we undergo what we call aging.

Thus, I can say it certainly wasn't unusual to have her masturbating to the Shirou/Saber scene in the forest - after all, most people, if exposed to something like that, would probably feel some level of arousal. Whether we could control it or not is another factor, but Rin really doesn't have experience with that, so self-control may well have been non-existant. Furthermore, she may well have been thinking that Shirou knowing that was happening would encourage him (and given he did hear what Rin was doing, she was right if she did) to "do the deed" as it were and give Saber that energy, as she knew if Shirou couldn't, they'd likely all be getting killed.

The UBW route just brings this much more to the forefront. Their relationship is awfully awkward, even clumsy. Shirou himself is only starting to think of girls by now "in that way" (he notices Sakura "filling out" after all, very early on, in all routes) but he's also had a crush on Rin for some time. For Rin, this is something she can't plan on, him being a Master - and as a result, in typical Rin fashion, she fails badly. That failure means that he is, however, the one person she can actually HAVE a relationship with, since he knows Tohsaka Rin is a magus, and it's a dangerous life - and so when she realizes he likes her too, that's why she quickly seizes on it. It quickly becomes a blessing in disguise, because Rin is also a lot more willing to be clumsy if the other person is equally as clumsy - and well, Shirou doesn't exactly have experience with girls either. Thus, she's able to explore the relationship and "those things" without looking like an idiot, something she'd intensely dislike.

Deep down, Rin is lonely. She may say she likes being alone, but the need for companionship, for SOME level of friends and loved ones, is just as instinctual, and as someone who personally keeps his own circle small, I understand how she would feel here fully (which also helps me to identify with her in a lot of ways). Rin is, really, determined to make it work, no matter how much it sucks at first, because she wants both worlds - she wants to be a Grade-A Magus as well as have what she wants; while she doesn't need much, she does want someone. That's why really Shirou more or less lucks out - as you say, Rin takes basically "the first thing she can get" that she doesn't have to worry about exposing dangerous knowledge to, because he already knows a great deal of the knowledge, albeit indirectly. And it works - the one in HA is a lot more natural, after all, a lot more comfortable, and on the whole, better for both, because she can finally dispense with having to keep up acts and just be herself, which she almost never gets the chance to do. So overall, Shirou being a Master winds up (in UBW, of course) being the luckiest thing to ever happen to her, really, short perhaps of gaining Zelretch's favor.

Granted, once she gets that, of course, the hormone factory kicks in full-swing, and of course, she's right at that age. All of a sudden, winning that bet with Ayako (because now she has a boyfriend, after all) just became... interesting. As for Saegusa-san? Her lunch certainly sounds lovelier than it did before... To put it another way, having someone would probably give her the confidence and experience needed to go into deeper relationships with other people. Whether she'd be bi or not is still up for debate (although personally I think she wouldn't care about the gender, more about the feeling/passion of the act) but on the whole it provides those two things she needs to do extremely well in any endeavor - knowledge and forethought. If Rin gets this, she can tame anyone.

.....Even tigers. ♥

You have quite a few good points going on here, though I would have liked to have seen more discussion involving the fact that Rin did indeed have sex with Saber, as silly and awkward written as it may have been, and was the one leading the situation as well. I know it goes again her portrayal as being a beginner sexually but the way she handles Saber, and later joins in with Shirou and Saber, seems to reflect her having some sexual experience with other women. Mind you this only really applies to the Fate route, as none of this is even remotely reflected in the other routes. But I think it's worth discussing when talking about Rin's character.

Originally Posted by gothic_dolly

You have quite a few good points going on here, though I would have liked to have seen more discussion involving the fact that Rin did indeed have sex with Saber, as silly and awkward written as it may have been, and was the one leading the situation as well. I know it goes again her portrayal as being a beginner sexually but the way she handles Saber, and later joins in with Shirou and Saber, seems to reflect her having some sexual experience with other women. Mind you this only really applies to the Fate route, as none of this is even remotely reflected in the other routes. But I think it's worth discussing when talking about Rin's character.

I think in that case it's more, again, to get Shirou into the mood.

......After all, most guys like lesbians. *coughs*

Plus, well, being a girl, Rin's obviously going to know a lot more about what feels good to a girl, have ideas of what to touch, and so on. Shirou would be 100% clueless (look how clumsy the Shirou/Rin scene was - though Rin was partially at fault as well because she basically told him to just stick it in), and more importantly, in the Fate route, is resistant about doing anything "displeasing" to Saber. (Or for that matter, treating her as anything but a girl for 2/3 of the route - which makes this moment of "exposing her girlhood" a pretty good twist.) Furthermore, she also needs to make sure Saber tries not to shoo Shirou off by insisting she can stick it out without it, or worse, using Excalibur as a suicide attack - so really getting her horny to to the point that she doesn't care is just as necessary as it is to get Shirou willing to stick it in.

Like I said, if this doesn't happen, the chances all three of them wind up dying is pretty damn high, and Rin knows that after throwing in her lot with Shirou, Illya has even less reason to like her and not brutally kill her. Not that she wouldn't do that anyway, given the history of the Holy Grail War, but Illya would definitely make her feel a hell of a lot more pain before killing her than she probably would've otherwise.

Interesting, very interesting.

I'm going to note that an alternative explanation for some of your points is "Nasu can't write (certain types of) relationships/sex scenes well", though.

Originally Posted by Seika

I'm going to note that an alternative explanation for some of your points is "Nasu can't write (certain types of) relationships/sex scenes well", though.

Must you kill our hopes and dreams?

...Nasu can't write sex scenes period, more like. "Seafood and Cthulhu too" as I call it.

I feel there's really nothing wrong with how I'm trying to forge my style, keeping the psychology and stuff there but writing FAR better smut.

...Of course, I'm biased. But I haven't heard many complaints about it. Certainly not more than the praise.

That should mean good things, once I crank out a Fate-based story (which is definitely on the table). For that, though, I have to finish a certain Tsukihime-based one first...

Originally Posted by Seika

Interesting, very interesting.

I'm going to note that an alternative explanation for some of your points is "Nasu can't write (certain types of) relationships/sex scenes well", though.

thats god's own truth, but, I think its important to note what was done accidentally and what was done deliberately. Nasu went waaaaaaaay out of his way to lay out how rin and shirou were really bad at having sex, and were setting themselves up for a bad encounter, and it kind of was one, "I AM NEVER HAVING SEX WITH YOU AGAIN!" And all, but rin still climaxes despite all that. seeing as how their inexperience was intended, what that kind of means for rin's sexual threshold is also reasonable to draw conclusions from.

Originally Posted by Radiantbeam

Must you kill our hopes and dreams?

Destroying the hope of humanity is part of the job description. Literally, there's a quota and all the other Great Old Ones sort of frown at you if you miss it. Insofar as any of them can frown, that is (and believe me, it's a horiffying experience when they do). If I miss it twice in a row, I lose my tentacle-sex privileges.

Rofl, Seika. X3

You are all now imagining Seika as Saya.

I've already done that, Five. Hymn just knows it better than anyone else.

You know, you came up with a bunch of interesting points, Tobias.

You do make an awful lot of good points, here.

For her, there is this great need to perform well, that she seems to stress herself out about it unnecessarily, and how she loves people that confront her head on like Issei shows how much pent-up energy (and starving for personal interaction) she has. And you brought up even more good points about the loneliness of keeping the masquerade. Caster had an interesting talk in Hollow about how magi are always having to tow that line, separating normal life from the abnormal, and that they should never mix.

One particular scene in Hollow was funny:

Spoiler:

How when Shirou asked Rider if Rin went to the salon often and he told her not to worry, because it might irritate Rin further that people know she makes attempts to take care of herself. Basically, she seems to detest showing she needed to make efforts to maintain that 'perfect' visage. Hell, this scene is further proof of that

What a clumsy person.

Some excellent points here, man, but I honestly believe we don't 'know' enough to be sure. Because we get so few scenes from her perspective, arguments can be made either way. So, definitely, the points you make do hold up, but I'm going to say that points made in the opposite camp are, too. Like most things in the Nasuverse, it seems to be up to interpretation. You have solid reasoning for the characterization, so even if I think a bit differently, I can say that this is completely viable.

Well, you're certainly right that Rin is lonely, and in the worst possible way. Her father died when she was 6, her mother was cripped and, consequentially, unable to do much, her guardian is a troll whose sole reason for living is to make others suffer, her friends don't know the real her because, if they did, then she would have to kill (or, at best mind-wipe) them and, worst of all, her beloved little sister was given away to another family at the age of four and is just out of reach, with Rin able to watch over her but never able to show her true affection. Hell, Rin says as much at the end of HF, when she's hugging Sakura. She had always hoped that Sakura was living happily as she suffered the life of a magus (which, tragically, is untrue).

Having said that, I'm not sure that demonstrates that she's not bisexual (at the very least). Even in HF True, when she has a family and close friends who know her true nature (although she admittedly doesn't see them all that often), as well as being around magi most of the time, she still shows an attraction to Rider. If she was genuinely as horny as you are claiming, she'd have jumped someone by that point, and yet it's clear that she is too hung-up on Shirou/Archer (it's not clear which) to progress with any kind of dating.

Its not that simple. She isn't going to go rape someone at 25 if she doesn't let off some steam at some point, and I doubt someone who practices as rigid self control as rin has a breaking point. Getting drunk and having an encounter at some point isn't completely off the table, though I rather doubt it

its pretty clear that she really wants a relationship that includes sex, not just a sexual relationship, she wants someone she can respect and feel close to. The sexual repression just started breaking down the wall a between what would and would not seem acceptable as a partner.


To make a humorous and not to be taken that seriously example, it's not like she is going to snap and launch herself at someone on the street, but if she actually got to 25, without any action or prospects, she might finding herself having the stray thought that those faceless fat guys in NTR doujins didn't really seem that bad

Yeah, but the point is that she does still have standards, and those standards seem to include women. She might not be lesbian, but there is a lot of evidence for her being bisexual.

well, thats where what RB was saying comes in, their are several interpretations of the same information. you can say that her standards include women means that, my theory is that rin's standards are just REALLY high. In the back of her mind a beautiful and attractive woman she could admire was preferable to an ugly man who smelled like onions, which would be where a less open minded person might have gone after becoming frustrated.

worth noting I don't intend or expect to convince everyone since there is material for several possibilities, but seeing as how I rarely if ever see this particular possibility talked about at all I thought it was worth a conversation.

But, based on your logic, every man who isn't Shirou or Archer must be ugly and smell of onions....

I will admit that both Saber and Rider are unusually beautiful, but Rin never shows interest in any other men but Shirou (who is seemingly supposed to be pretty attractive, judging by Sakura's masturbation scene...), and seems to have some interest in Ayako (although perhaps only as a friend), so there's no indication of her being any more interested in men than in women.

I agree entirely about her being lonely and frustrated, I just don't see it as evidence of her not being at least somewhat bisexual. Also, it's not a case of being "open-minded". You can be the most open-minded girl in the world, but if you're 100% straight you won't find women sexually attractive (and, before you claim I'm being homophobic or similar, consider how it would sound if you went to a gay guy and said "hey, you should give hot chicks a go, you're totally closed-minded for only fancing blokes"), and thus the fact that Rin is sexually attracted to Saber and Rider means she is at least a little bisexual (although she may still be predominantly straight).

Hmm? Nah, situational homosexuality is a fairly common occurance. Which isn't exactly rin's situation but it does demonstrate evidence that sufficient levels of sexual frustration can push otherwise straight, well adjusted people into homosexual behavior.